The hunt for the hobbits?

[Fat middle]

I don't know if we have been over this before, but I found I little problem (it's really a bit of nitpicking) while re-reading Gloin's tale at The Council of Elrond:
"Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dáin, but not from Moria – from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dáin to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "For Sauron knows," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time."
I think it doesn't match with what later was told in UT: The Hunt for the Ring.
Gollum would not know the term "Hobbit," which was local and not a universal Westron word. He would probably not use "Halfling" since he was one himself, and Hobbits disliked the name. That is why the Black Riders seem to have had two main pieces of information only to go on: Shire and Baggins.
Besides, I've just notice that Gloin places the first visit of the Back Rider "about a year ago". That's far before The Hunt for the Ring had begun as it is told in UT.

I think that Gollum had been captured by that time, so that wouldn't be a problem, but Sauron had not won the Bridge of Osgiliath yet, so the Ringwraiths couldn't have crossed so soon. The only idea I have is that the Rider that visited Dain was Khamûl, because he lived at Dol Guldur, but it is odd anyway.

Have any of you heard anything else about this?

[Nurvingiel]

So you're asking, how did they know they were looking for hobbits? Interesting, I never thought about that before.

Maybe they asked Saruman, he was interested in the Shire before Morder was. He could have known at that point, and Sauron could have tricked it out of him maybe.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

maybe sauron had information that related to the holbytla coming from a land called the shire, and thus put two and two together,
being a maia, he had to have been pretty clever?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Oh, my God! I think JRRT has just started a revision of LOTR in the afterlife! And he was finally making some progress on The Silmarillion. Sigh! And it's all Fat middle's fault.

No. no. He canst do that, precious. LOTR has been published!

Ah, but The Hobbit was revised years later.

Yess. But only because the old, nassty, thief Baggins lied!

Whatever. Let's just hope he finally gets around to finishing what I'm sure everyone agrees is the best Middle-earth story, Tuor: before, during, and after Gondolin.:cool:

[brownjenkins]

it is interesting... if i remember rightly, in the hobbit, gollum did not seem to know what bilbo was... and thus called him baggins when bilbo named himself

it may just be a slip on tolkien's part... one would think that the messenger from mordor would ask about "baggins" to be more specific, even if there was some knowledge of halflings/hobbits

plus, if sauron got info from saruman on the subject... he would not need to ask where hobbits were located

of course, the messenger may have said "halflings", and gloin was just paraphasing... using the term he was familiar with ;)

[Ruinel]

I don't see a conflict.

What Gollum knows and told was not all that Sauron knows. Sauron had more sources of information than just Gollum.

EDIT: also, you have to remember... LotR was published in JRRT's time. It was the finished creation... Unfinished Tales was something put out later, by CT.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I don't see a conflict.

What Gollum knows and told was not all that Sauron knows. Sauron had more sources of information than just Gollum.

EDIT: also, you have to remember... LotR was published in JRRT's time. It was the finished creation... Unfinished Tales was something put out later, by CT.

Yep, but The Hunt for the Ring was written after LOTR was published IIRC, and all that Tolkien wrote after publishing LOTR was meant to be consistent with LOTR.

Anyway, what I've found is that what I quoted from The Hunt for the Ring has to be wrong. It seems that Tolkien forgot not only THe Council of Elrond but The Shadow of the Past:

And he has at last heard, I think, of hobbits and the Shire

So, Tuor, it won't be necessary to rewrite LOTR, just to make a revision on UT :p

[Ruinel]

Wha? It's Hobbit hunting season already? Damn! I didn't register for my licence. :(

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
I think that Gollum had been captured by that time, so that wouldn't be a problem, but Sauron had not won the Bridge of Osgiliath yet, so the Ringwraiths couldn't have crossed so soon. The only idea I have is that the Rider that visited Dain was Khamûl, because he lived at Dol Guldur, but it is odd anyway.

But Erebor is to the east of Anduin anyway... so that could have been any of the Nine.

As for the other, ie - when Sauron learned the word 'Hobbit' - maybe just a slight inconsistency *blasphemy!* on JRRT's part. :)

[Valandil]

Just occured to me on reading an earlier post in this thread... and I went to the book to check it:

Tolkien never TELLS us that it was a Black Rider who comes to Erebor asking for news of The One Ring. I think we assume so because we've just been reading about them when we hear Gloin's account.

But could it have been 'The Mouth of Sauron'?

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Valandil
Just occured to me on reading an earlier post in this thread... and I went to the book to check it:

Tolkien never TELLS us that it was a Black Rider who comes to Erebor asking for news of The One Ring. I think we assume so because we've just been reading about them when we hear Gloin's account.

But could it have been 'The Mouth of Sauron'?

True, but Gloin says that the messenger was hissing... Did Mouth of Sauron also hiss all the time? Perhaps the hissing comes from a disease caused by Mordor's terrible weather :p

[Valandil]

Hey... I can hiss... can't you? :p

[Artanis]

He's from Spain. He can't pronounce a decent 's'. :D

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hey... I can hiss... can't you? :p

Originally posted by Artanis
He's from Spain. He can't pronounce a decent 's'.

That's because I'm not from Mordor :p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally posted by Fat middle
True, but Gloin says that the messenger was hissing... Did Mouth of Sauron also hiss all the time? Perhaps the hissing comes from a disease caused by Mordor's terrible weather :p

i was always under the impression that it only sounded like hissing, because the way the wraiths spoke was too high-pitched and fast for us to comprehend

[Beor]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Wha? It's Hobbit hunting season already? Damn! I didn't register for my licence. :(

No problem. You can get one online that can be printed out. All you need to do is go to the DNR website, apply for a license, and send them your credit card number, and they will e-mail you a license with a number and everything, all you have to do is print it out. You've still got a month and a half to bag one, so I suggest getting on it right now.

What do you use, a .30-.06 or what?

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Last Child of Ungoliant
i was always under the impression that it only sounded like hissing, because the way the wraiths spoke was too high-pitched and fast for us to comprehend
Wraiths on helium....Oh man that's some freaky image. :p

LOL!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Wraiths on helium....Oh man that's some freaky image. :p

LOL! LOL here too!
:p

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

as gollum said
"Wraiths! Wraiths on helium!"

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Eärniel
Wraiths on helium....Oh man that's some freaky image. :p

LOL!

ctm...

[Falagar]

He may actually not have said 'Hobbits', since it was Gloin that recounted the tale this may some 'mental' translation by Gloin.

The wraiths were on Helium? We should complain to PJ!

[Radagast The Brown]

Falagar, bronjenkins already said it might have happened.

Originally posted by brownjenkins
of course, the messenger may have said "halflings", and gloin was just paraphasing... using the term he was familiar with

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
Falagar, bronjenkins already 'guessed' it might have happened.
Ah well, better late than never. ;)