Chapter 20: Of the Fifth Battle

[Lefty Scaevola]

Synopsis

The chapter starts With the return to Beleriand of Luthien and Beren. From their deeds, Maedhros and others perceive that Morgoth is not invulnerable. Maedhros forms an alliance to attack Morgoth. In are the Oathtakers, Belegost, Nogrod, Ulfang’s tribe, Bor’s tribe, Hithlum & Dor-Lomin, The Falas, and Brethil. Gondolin is also coming, but unknown yet to most of all of the others (although I suspect Fingon may have had some word of it). Not in are Doriath or Nargothrond because of grievances with the Oathtakers, fear of war, and overconfidence of defensive measures.
Preliminary measures were the clearing of northern Beleriand and retaking of Dorthonion. Both strategically necessary, but undertaken too soon, before there could be and immediate follow-up attack on Angband, and thus telegraphing intentions to Morgoth.
The plan for the main battle is for the eastern forces under Maedhros to advance to Angband, and if Morgoth advances against them for The western forces under Fingon the then attack. Presumably the is a plan B for if Morgoth does not come forth, but it is not mentioned.
Morgoth has good intelligence of the plans and operation of the Union of Maedhros, and his counter plan is to delay Maedhros by means of traitors, and to draw Fingon out and crushed him first.
Maedhros’ Plan fails, Morgoth’s succeeds.
Maedhros is delayed by deceits from the traitors, Uldor, Ulfast, and Ulwarth. Morgoth advances and army towards Hithlum, and by atrocity lures out the western army, despite the resistance to such stratagem by some of its leaders. Their assault falls heavier than the Morgoth has expected and drives his army with much slaughter back to Angband. Morgoth sends forth more armies to counterattack Fingon, whose host is strung out in pursuit, and Fingon is driven back and then surrounded on the Anfauglith. Turgon attacks and Breaks through to Fingon from the south, and Maedhros attacks from the East. Morgoth attacks with his reserves, including the Balrogs and Glaurung the dragon, and drive a solid wedge between Fingon and Maedhros. Treachery is triggered and part of Maedhros’ forces desert, and the Ulfangians switch sides and attack his rear, and allies of their attack from the east. Maedhros’ host breaks, with a cadre of his Noldor s and the Dwarves fighting their way out. Azaghal, King of Belegost, and his guard wounds Glaurung, allowing some of the host to escape. Morgoth now condetrates on the west host, and Gothmog drives a wedge between the forces of Fingon and the rest, driving Hurin and Turgon to the south. Fingon is surrounded and destroyed, himself killed dueling with Balrogs. Hurin, Huor, and the men of Dor-Lomin rearguard for Turgon, who escapes to Gondolin. Hurin is captured.
Hithlum, and Dor-Lomin are occupied. Dorthonion taken (again), and NE Beleriand. Morgoth betrays (what a surprise) his human allies, and shut them up in Hithlum and Dor-Lomin. The remaining Oathtakers take refuge in Ossirland. Morgoth’s raids not go far south into Beleriand. Next year Morgoth takes the Falas and Barad Nimras, and the surviving Sindar (and Noldor refugees) there flee to the Island of Balar. Turgon tries to send emissaries to Aman, they fail. Morgoth tries to break Hurin but fails, and curses him and his family.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Additional Readings

HoME
III The Lays of Beleriand
The lay of the Children of Hurin: lines 8 thru 104
IV The Shaping of Middle Earth:
The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’: sec 11
The Quenta: chap 11
The Earliest Annals of Beleriand: years 165 thru 173
V The Lost Road:
The Later Annals of Beleriand: years 265 thru 273
Quenta Silmarillion: chap 16
XI The War of the Jewels:
The Gray Annals: years 468 thru 472 (sec 211 thru 250)
Unfinished Tales
The Narn I Hin Hurin: The Words of Hurin and Morgoth: pp 65 to 68

[Lefty Scaevola]

1. How do Maedhros and Fingon confer?
2. How does word reach Turgon (which must have included secret operational and timing information)? Do he and Fingon have a sort of dialog where Fingon gets answers back?
3. Rate JRRT’s military operational and strategic sense, from how He describes the preliminaries to the battle, its approaches, and development
4. If Ulfang’s people are already traitors and spies for Morgoth, why does he not get intelligence of Maedhros’ growing strength and plans until Maedhros make his preliminary attacks.
5. Compare Fingon’s Host with Maedhros’ host, particularly with their stamina of the battlefield (Fingon’s starts 4 days earlier, and finishes a day later).
6. Try to think up effective tactics for the good guys to use against mature dragons.
7. Could the hosts of Nargothrond and Doriath have turned the battle result, thus delaying Morgoth’s dominance for a generation of orc rebuilding?
8. Why can not Maedhros and his brothers, with all their Noldorin wisdom, caution of treason, and some telepathic power (see Finrod in chap 17) not detect treason in the sons of Ulfang?
9. Huor has a significant prophecy at the end of the battle. This is rare in ME, if not unique, that a purely mortal human has such power. Most other instances of prophecy that my (dimming with age) memory comes up with are Ainur (duh), elves, and men descended in part from elves. How intentional is this limitation and what are its reasons?
10. Aure entuluva! This theme, ending some sort dark age (with the variant of staving off a dark age), seems to be nearly universal in epic fantasy. How practical is it to try epic fantasy without it? Any examples of successful epic fantasy without it?

[Lizra]

Oooh! Nice work! :)

[Beor]

I cant offer too much (need to go back and re-read the chapter). Your summary is excellent, and this is probably my favorite chapter in the book. The battle is so well defined and described.

I'm going to hit on #4 up there, in that I think that JRR did a good job with the tactics and strategys of both Morgogh and Maedhros. Like I said, I need to go back and re-read the chapter, but I remember that I was impressed when I read it. Good plan on Maedhros' part, with the two pronged attack on Morgoth, and the uniting of the elves. All through the Sil, he (Tolkien) says that the elves will never on their own power defeat Morgoth, and I think that in this instance, they could have (assuming that he was exhausted from the battle, hell, Fingolfin wounded him), if they had only united. They could have had a three front battle at once, with Fingon to the west, Maedhros to the east, and the whole host of Nagothrond and Doriath to the south, keeping Gondolin in reserve for when Morgoth's line broke. But, as we know, that didnt happen, so they were screwed. The idea of goading the western lines into attacking too soon of Morgoth was definitely a good one too. They do it all the time, and it usually works. However, if I was the captains of the Orcs that Gwindor(?) pursued to the gates, I would have had my soldiers part rather than get slaughtered, and attacked the rear and sides of the charging elves, which would have been thin at best. That way, Fingon would have been destroyed quickly, and all Morgoth would have to worry about was Maedhros.

Anyway, I guess I didnt really discuss anything, but I do like this chapter, and I welcome any critizsm (cant spell good).

[Rían]

Thanks, Lefty - nice summary of a great chapter!

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
9. Huor has a significant prophecy at the end of the battle. This is rare in ME, if not unique, that a purely mortal human has such power. Most other instances of prophecy that my (dimming with age) memory comes up with are Ainur (duh), elves, and men descended in part from elves. How intentional is this limitation and what are its reasons?
Yes, this is interesting - Huor (husband of RÃ*an :cool: ) had a pretty important prophecy, and it really seemed to sway Turgon to return to Gondolin. Before, Turgon seemed to be leaning towards staying, and I'm sure it was hard for him and his warriors to leave the battle.

I like how Huor doesn't deny that Gondolin will fall (he doesn't indulge in pipe dreams) ("pipe dreams" - what an expression!), but says "Yet if it stands but a little while....". Also, JRRT mentions foresight somewhere in HOME (perhaps MR?), and notes that it's especially accurate when the person knows they are going to die; as Huor says "This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here forever..."

10. Aure entuluva! This theme, ending some sort dark age (with the variant of staving off a dark age), seems to be nearly universal in epic fantasy. How practical is it to try epic fantasy without it? Any examples of successful epic fantasy without it?
Whew! What a scene! What a battle cry! 70 times!
One of the great scenes in all the legendarium, IMO.
Kind of ties into my quote over in the quote game, too, in a way - altho there is sorrow and grief, the beauty and courage that have existed and still exist more than make up for it, and shall win in the end. Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!

[Rían]

(ps - just looked up "pipe dreams" because I had NO idea where it came from - "fantastic idea, vain hope or plan, etc., such as an opium smoker might have". Oh, the "pipe" makes sense now. The linguistics lesson for the day!)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

6. Try to think up effective tactics for the good guys to use against mature dragons.
_________________________________________
This has always seemed to me an incredible blind spot and short-term thinking by the good guys.The elves relaxing and nonunderstanding even after it took Fingon and his archers together to, not kill or wound a half-grown Glaurung, but just drive him back.

Since Turin's killing of Glaurung indicates that even fully grown dragons had stomach vulnerabilities (Smaug had encrusted diamonds protecting him, and what about mouth and eyes?), for a non-flying dragon the logical approach would to be fight on broken ground or in ways forcing a dragon to rear (attacking from hills above)? (think of the good guys at the end of the movie "Willow" popping up from cover). Such tactics should have been combined with significant commissions to the dwarves for their "dragon proof" masks (perhaps, like [Perseus?] against the Medusa, with some sort of reflective surface to see where the dragons were. These specialist units should have been some sort of elite anti-dragon units, held back for such specific purposes (somewhat like American Rangers or glider paratroop units in
WW II).

Of course, flying dragons are another story!

[Artanis]

Lovely intro Lefty! :)
Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
2. How does word reach Turgon (which must have included secret operational and timing information)? Do he and Fingon have a sort of dialog where Fingon gets answers back?That's a very good question, to which I have no good answer. I've always imagined Gondolin to be a place from where no one ever left and to where no one ever entered, save on very rare and special occations. Nonetheless it seems clear that Turgon knew exactly when to come forth. Maybe also the reason why he restrained his host from attacking too soon was because he knew about Maedhros' and Fingon's plan. Or he may have been just wise and careful, guessing Morgoth's tactics.
5. Compare Fingon’s Host with Maedhros’ host, particularly with their stamina of the battlefield (Fingon’s starts 4 days earlier, and finishes a day later).Well Lefty, I read between the lines here that you think Maedhros' host should have shown more valour and stayed longer before they fled. :) I believe the people of Fingon were said to be the hardiest and most valiant of all the Ñoldor, and so they also seem to be at the battlefield. But then Fingon's host did not have trouble with treason among their own, and no dragons to worry about, only :D a few balrogs and such.

[Artanis]

Oh, can anyone please tell me, where exactly lies Anfauglith? :confused:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Oh, can anyone please tell me, where exactly lies Anfauglith? :confused: IIRC, Anfauglith was Ardgalen, the land of Angrod and Aegnor before the Dagor Bragollach. It was located to the north of Dorthonian near Angband and devided from Angband by a great bulwark.

Regarding how Turgon may have known about the Nirnaeth, I always thought and I think it says somewhere in the Sil, that the eagles often brought word to him of events in the outside world.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
IIRC, Anfauglith was Ardgalen, the land of Angrod and Aegnor before the Dagor Bragollach. It was located to the north of Dorthonian near Angband and devided from Angband by a great bulwark.Thanx SGH, that makes good sense. :) From the description of the battle I assumed it would lie far north.
Regarding how Turgon may have known about the Nirnaeth, I always thought and I think it says somewhere in the Sil, that the eagles often brought word to him of events in the outside world. That would be a plausible explanation, I guess.

[Lefty Scaevola]

News gather by eagles and such would not likely have informed Turgon of the planned date of the battle. Relying on visual scouting reports, he would have been several days behind in mobilization and march than Fingon. I believe that was some actual messages sent him by some means, eagles of otherwise (maybe telepathic communication with his brother, since we have some hints of telepathy and long range telepathy between the great of the Eldar.)

[Artanis]

'Telepathy'? But it says that Turgon was unlooked for and that Fingon had a heavy heart before he appeared? It doesn't fit.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Although not clear as to how much Fingon personally was suprised, as opposed to his host, that would suggest that only one way communication was involved, with no reply by Turgon, likely in the form of messages carried to Turgon by the eagles.

[Artanis]

Lefty, do you think that Maedhros and Fingon when planning the battle communicated through 'telepathy'?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Possible, I suspect they met face to face during the prelimiaries of the campaign, after Maedhros had clear Dorthonion, and the western forces had clear the the vales of the Sirion and the pass of Sirion. Indeed a principal object of such premliminaries would be to facilitate communication and cooperation. Some forces were maintained in Dorthonion, and signal beacons place there.

We have only minor refences to the telepathy, both in LoTr and Sil.
Although there is no refence to palantir (reputed to have been made by Feanor) like devices in Sil, it is possible that some sort of long range communication technology was available to the Noldor in Belariand.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
We have only minor refences to the telepathy, both in LoTr and Sil. And the Ósanwe-kenta.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
7. Could the hosts of Nargothrond and Doriath have turned the battle result, thus delaying Morgoth’s dominance for a generation of orc rebuilding?Yes and yes again! The strength of Nargothrond and Doriath would probably have changed the outcome of the battle. Why, oh why, my dear Maitimo, didn't you tell your little brothers to Shut Up their big mouths?
8. Why can not Maedhros and his brothers, with all their Noldorin wisdom, caution of treason, and some telepathic power (see Finrod in chap 17) not detect treason in the sons of Ulfang?Yes, I think that the Fëanoreans should have been more careful, and they should at least have taken into account the possibility of treason. They must have known that there were spies about, and more, that Morgoth had had dominion over the Men in the east.
9. Huor has a significant prophecy at the end of the battle. This is rare in ME, if not unique, that a purely mortal human has such power. Most other instances of prophecy that my (dimming with age) memory comes up with are Ainur (duh), elves, and men descended in part from elves. How intentional is this limitation and what are its reasons?RÃ*an has already said all I wanted to say here. :)

[Tuor of Gondolin]

About the Great Eagles helping. They seem to intervene not to actively assist the Noldor but passively (guarding Gondolin) and in ways not effecting the fate of the elves (Thorondor rescuing Fingolfin's body and attacking Morgoth [ouch!] ). I believe there's speculation they were Maia, if so, might they have been constrained from interfering unduly (particularly because of the Curse of Mandos), and especially with the sons of Feanor (the Eagles didn't rescue Maedhros when he was on the cliff). Therefore, if there had been no kinslaying might the Eagles have been more active (and would the efforts of the elves to get help from Valinor have been earlier effective and would the elves have gotten more cooperation from Doriath- particularly in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, although Thingol would probably have still been in a snit over being elbowed out of dominance in Doriath)?

[Lefty Scaevola]

I have suspected that the relative lack of precognition among men, other than those descended from elves is one part of the gift of man: that their spirits are freer of fate/doom and to make their way independently in the world. It would make good sense that thoses more bound by fate, are better able to forsee it. Note also that Huor, and espciially his son Tour are so closely bound to the Noldor and their fate, perhaps giving them a leg up in the prophecy dept.

[Beor]

Thats true, and a very good point, but it could also be that Ulmo had something to do with Huor's prophecy at this time. Ulmo set the whole thing (with Turgon and Tuor) up before there was a Gondolin, and he was speaking through Tuor's mouth when they talked to Echtilon (I cant spell well, and dont have the books near me) and then again to Turgon. Maybe Ulmo gave Huor some foresight here.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Huor was next to the waters of the Rivil and he Sirion when he made his prophecy

[Artanis]

I just read the latest account that JRRT wrote of the Fifth Battle (if I understand CRT right), and there it is Fingon who is restraining his captains from attacking too soon, not Húrin. I like that much better, I had problems with Fingon as a rash hothead forgetting his and Maedhros' plan and ignoring all his knowledge and experience of Morgoth.

[Falagar]

Where can that account be found? Don't think I've heard of it.

[Artanis]

HoME 11, The Grey Annals, Note 2: A further account of the Battle of Unnumbered Tears.

[Falagar]

Thanks. :) I'll check it out.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Something I am wondering is; why couldn't Fingon as High King order Nargothrond to be more active in this battle? Although Nargothrond was a kingdom to itself, it was still answerable to Hithlum, wasn't it?

[Beor]

I would imagine, but I think the Elves didnt want to be too pushy with their own kind. There were already so many hatreds among them (the sons of F and Doriath, Nagothrond and the C brothers), that I think that Fingon would be wary to really put out any orders to the other Kingdoms.

Also, Beleriand seemed to run itself like seperate nations, the whole High King thing seemed to me to be more of a title than a power (except you get to die an incredible death in battle!)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Beor
I would imagine, but I think the Elves didnt want to be too pushy with their own kind. There were already so many hatreds among them (the sons of F and Doriath, Nagothrond and the C brothers), that I think that Fingon would be wary to really put out any orders to the other Kingdoms.

Also, Beleriand seemed to run itself like seperate nations, the whole High King thing seemed to me to be more of a title than a power (except you get to die an incredible death in battle!) I always thought of the High Kingship as more than a title, but I see your point, and Turgon was an absolute 'do nothing' High King because of Gondolin. Gil-galad seemed much more kingly in that position, more active under that title. I think had a greater host from Nargothrond been in this battle, the Elves may have won the day in spite of the treachery of Men.

[Beor]

I definitely agree, if they had Nargothrond and Doriath as well, they would have won the day. He says that Angband was emptied, which means that if they could defeat the army on the field, all they would have to do is go after Morgoth, and they would have victory. The elves hold too may grudges.

Gil-Galad was definitely a good high king, and that brings to mind also, that Cirdan could have floated up the Sirion and held himself in reserve at in the Fens of Serech until needed. Fresh troops can definitely mean the difference between victory and defeat.

[Lefty Scaevola]

The Elves of the Falas (Cirdan) did send an army which was included in Fingon's host.

[Lefty Scaevola]

"6. Try to think up effective tactics for the good guys to use against mature dragons."

Dragons present 4 large tactical/techological problems

Strong armor
Fire breath
BIG, and repulsvie
strong magic/spells

The last will not be two difficult for the many of the top Noldor, because they are no slouchs in magic/spells themselves, and even non magic users seems to avoid much of it by avoiding eye contact. It it likely the dragon can only deal with one opponent by this means at a time
The great engineers of the Noldor can surely develope armor piercing weapons, both projectile and melee. If a dwarf can hack deep enough with an axe to distress a dragon, then Noldor can make personnal crossbow like weapons to seriously hurt one, and mobile balistae like ones to to put it out of action. They would already unterstand the metallury and design of weapon points and edges for use against armor. And even non technitians can grasp the basic of designing arrows, bolts, and balista bolts to maximise armor penetration. The Balistae would have to be very mobile on the battlefield to be able to get to the dragon, but that can readily be done as well: big wheels, lots of horses. Armor piercing tips would already be available for battle lances.
Big & smelly: Horses to operate near the dragon would have to be specially tarined and conditioned not to panic, but that seems to be not too diffucult for the Elves, who how great success with training and controlling them, and maintaining and emontinal and mental contact with them which could protect them.
Fire breath is a big problem, but if the dwarvs of Belegost could handele it, the Noldor caould do so better, with better technology, training, and their inherent resistance to bodily ill and harm. Also the breath is directional and can not go everywhere at once, and is likely exhaustable on the battlefield.

[Lefty Scaevola]

I would suggest that two or more special mobile dragons fighting units be formed. They would be mounted and horse drawn. They would have crossbow, balistae, and heavy knights that would charge home with armor piercing battle lances (think of all the momentum and kinetic energy of a large warhorse behind a well designed hardened lance tip and reinforced lance shaft; spitted dragon time if you can drive it home). they, particularly the knights and their mounts, would near special gear to deal with flame. They would neeed a high degree of training including the animals, to deal with the terror of the dragon.
Groups of mounted crossbowmen would have to be dispersed with the rest of the host to help contain and slow down the dragon while the dragon slayers approach and manuver. The same units would also be useful for dealing with Balrogs and large trolls.
The killing tactic would be circling harrasment by the crossbows to distract and pin the drangons while the ballistae or knights manuver for the kill from multiple sides. This would require the support of more regular troops to clear away most other dark troops away from the dragon before the slayers close in.

[Beor]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
The Elves of the Falas (Cirdan) did send an army which was included in Fingon's host.

You're right, sorry.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beor
the C brothers.... (except you get to die an incredible death in battle!) LOL!!

Re fighting dragons - I always liked the account in the FoGondolin how Rog and the people of the Hammer of Wrath just went for broke against the Balrogs and dragons - they didn't even try to "win back" to the city, they just decided to stand and fight to the end, like Hurin, because (quoting Rog) - "Who now shall fear the Balrogs for all their terror? See before us the accursed ones who for ages have tormented the children of the Noldoli, and who now set a fire at our backs with their shooting. Come ye of the Hammer of Wrath and we will smite them for their evil."

Also the same attitude was seen so beautifully in ROTK with Duilin of Morthond and his brother fighting the mumakil, "leading their bowmen close to shoot at the eyes of the monsters." I'm sure they knew they would pay the ultimate price, but it had to be done to give others a chance.

[Beor]

I love the combat of Rog and his people. Its one of my favorite little battles in the whole Middle-Earth parade. Rog's people must have been berserkers, but elvish ones. I like how he describes the hammers. Hammers are cool. I would have liked to fight with Rog, even though I wouldnt be posting here right now (unless Mandos hooked up the internet to his halls)

[Lefty Scaevola]

Nolendil will show up sonner or later to tell you that BoLT is a different existance than Middle Earth. :D

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Beor
(unless Mandos hooked up the internet to his halls) LOL! But aren't you a Man? Then you wouldn't be staying for long in Mandos' halls anyway. :D

[Rían]

Originally posted by Beor
I would have liked to fight with Rog, even though I wouldnt be posting here right now (unless Mandos hooked up the internet to his halls) :D

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Nolodil will show up sonner or later to tell you that BoLT is a different existance than Middle Earth. :D Does Nolendil say that, too? I thought it was just Michael Martinez.

Yes, it's different, but c'mon, they are definitely connected/related.


Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Fire breath is a big problem..... A bit of an understatement ... :D but yes, it IS directional.

[Beor]

Originally posted by Artanis
LOL! But aren't you a Man? Then you wouldn't be staying for long in Mandos' halls anyway. :D

Well, I might be able to trick him by using big words and saying "shall", and telling stories about the waters of Awakening, and the trip to Valinor, and by looking out the window, and saying "I used to live right there", and pointing to Formeos or something. But you're right, I'd get the boot soon enough.

Fire breath is a big problem, but usually some toothpaste and a toothbrush can get rid of it, or some listerine ;)

Nolodil will show up sooner or later and tell you that BoLT is a different existance than Middle-earth :D

Yeah, but the BoLT version of Gondolin is a heck of a lot more Rockin' than the brief glimpse one gets in the Sil.

[Lefty Scaevola]

"3. Rate JRRT’s military operational and strategic sense, from how He describes the preliminaries to the battle, its approaches, and development"

It appears to me that he has a very solid grasp of strategy. The prelimaries and, approaches, and plans of the Noldor are clearly dictated by the geography and ground and by the exterior position. All I could add there is that a reserve (Turgons Host would fit) should advance to the north face of Dorthonian to protect against Morgoths obviously strategy of pushing the the Noldorin hosts apart. Morgoths strategy is equally dictated by his cirumstances of central position. With a discipline advance (rather than Fingon being drawn out into rapid pursuit uncoordinated with Maedhros) or with Maedhros not alowing hiself to be delayed, and with appropriate flank guards on both wings, Morgoth would have been readily defeated, even against Uldor's trechery and the other forces from the east.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The Wars of Beleriand illustrate the consequences of two serious mistakes, one by Feanor and one by the Valar. Feanor's was, of course, the kin slaying, without which there would not have been the Curse of Mandos (with its reference to treachery, negating the wfforts of the elves). The other error was bringing the elves to Aman. Valar assistance to elves staying in Middle-earth, or a united Noldor without the kinslaying and ship burning incidents would in either case have led to a resistance to Morgoth which could well have contained him, albeit not finally defeating him. Perhaps leading to his withdrawing to Eastern/Central Middle-earth. Therefore, Maedhros' tactical plans were sound and could well have worked, but were doomed by his daddy's rash actions, which is what ticked off Doriath to withhold support. (Feanor rather reminds you of observations of Sonny Corleone by Sollozzo in The Godfather I "You can't do business with that hothead.":D

[Beor]

Yeah, but dont you think that they were held too much by doom? All they would have to do is swallow their pride, and realise that they have a common enemy. Who cares if Feanor killed a bunch of Teleri in Aman a few hundred years ago? Maedhros is trying to rally everyone now, so put the kinslaying behind you for now and be a man (elf). The doom of Mandos just predicted the pride of the elves and men. He might not even have known for sure what was going to happen, he just had to know that they were stubborn and unwilling to change their course. A little cooperation is all that they needed.

i agree with the elves to Aman thing though. Foolish Valar. ;)

The Godfather, or maybe Tony Montana, that guy got fired up. (except Feanor didnt snort lines of Cocaine an inch thich and a foot long)(as far as I know)

[Maedhros]

The other error was bringing the elves to Aman.
I think that the error was not that, but what happened to the event that led to the Valar to feel that ME was not safe for the Elves.
From Morgoth's Ring: Converse of Manwë and Eru
There were many such fëar of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of MÃ*riel in Aman that Manwë appealed directly to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it (cf. LQ §20, p. 161: 'And Manwë said to the Valar: "This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor." Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, and it is said that he (and others of the Valar) had before been unwilling to strive with Melkor, foreboding the hurts of the world that must come of that strife').

It appears to me that he has a very solid grasp of strategy. The prelimaries and, approaches, and plans of the Noldor are clearly dictated by the geography and ground and by the exterior position. All I could add there is that a reserve (Turgons Host would fit) should advance to the north face of Dorthonian to protect against Morgoths obviously strategy of pushing the the Noldorin hosts apart. Morgoths strategy is equally dictated by his cirumstances of central position. With a discipline advance (rather than Fingon being drawn out into rapid pursuit uncoordinated with Maedhros) or with Maedhros not alowing hiself to be delayed, and with appropriate flank guards on both wings, Morgoth would have been readily defeated, even against Uldor's trechery and the other forces from the east.
In principle I agree with this but, regardless of everything, I think that Maedhros disregarded Sun Tzu: The Art of War most important principle:
paraprasing
You do not go to war to see if you are going to win, you win first and then you go to war.
It always seemed to me that Maedhros went to war with the hope of beating Morgoth's forces, while Morgoth planed ahead and won the war before actually fighting it with the aid of his cunning.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Tuor of Gondolin
(Feanor rather reminds you of observations of Sonny Corleone by Sollozzo in The Godfather I "You can't do business with that hothead.":D ROTFL! :D

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
2. How does word reach Turgon (which must have included secret operational and timing information)? Do he and Fingon have a sort of dialog where Fingon gets answers back?
I think there must have been some communication of Turgon and the world outside Gondolin. The Eagles could provide some info on troop movements and such but I don't think they carried messages. But I believe I read somewhere that at one point Turgon sent messengers to Cirdan, in that prospect he might have sent out some Elves to scout or gather intelligence as well.

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
6. Try to think up effective tactics for the good guys to use against mature dragons.
I think there is very little that helps against mature dragons. One on one combat will probably end in a few Elf-kebabs. Either they would have had to use heavy war-engines (which they don't seem to use in their army at all) or trickery and traps. I'm thinking of luring the dragon in hidden pits from where it can't get out and then pelt it with steel and rock. Of course that depends on the terrain where you're fighting.


Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I always thought of the High Kingship as more than a title, but I see your point, and Turgon was an absolute 'do nothing' High King because of Gondolin. Gil-galad seemed much more kingly in that position, more active under that title. I think had a greater host from Nargothrond been in this battle, the Elves may have won the day in spite of the treachery of Men.

Now, now, I don't think that comparison is entirely fair. ;) When Turgon became High King there wasn't really much to be High King of. Most Elven realms -if they managed to maintain themselves- were hard pushed and scattered. Nearly every leader was dead. Gil-galad lived in an easier time IMO and the Elves were more united then. The constant threat of treachery from their own kin was gone after the re-imprisonment of Morgoth and Gil-galad had time to rebuild his realm before the war with Sauron.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Beor
Yeah, but the BoLT version of Gondolin is a heck of a lot more Rockin' than the brief glimpse one gets in the Sil. You can say that again! I've just been re-reading most of Tuor's story and the Fall of Gondolin, and it's superb! :)

Originally posted by Maedhros
It always seemed to me that Maedhros went to war with the hope of beating Morgoth's forces,... I wonder if Maedhros' actions had been different if Fëanor his father had told him of his foreknowledge at the hour of his death:
And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them;...

[Olmer]

The strength of Nargothrond and Doriath would probably have changed the outcome of the battle.
It probably would, but never did, because on the wars they were building their wealth and this why they did not want to participate in previous Wars.

And now, my friends, explain to me what the heck Maedhros promised to Dwarve's King to make them change their viewpoint?
Was it goodwill or some kind of agreement? Because the way they left the battlefield rase some questions.

[Earniel]

This chapter really reminded me how Fëanor and his sons really are poor leadership material. While Maedhros' initiative is laudable, he goes about it again rather poorly. Not in the least by driving away the potential allies of Doriath just when he is starting to gather forces. Everything they do is for selfish reasons, nowhere in their actions can I see something for the good of his people. Sometimes I feel the Oath is just an excuse to misbehave.

I was wondering what influence Uldor must have had over Maedhros to keep him from fighting for four days, even while by then the fact that Fingon had engaged the enemy and the failure of their previous strategy must have been obvious. But then I thought that Maedhros probably didn't have too many Eldar still following him, after the losses from the Dagor Bragollach and the poor conduct of his brothers, and that for any significant number of troops he had no other choice than to rely heavily on Men.

The one good call he made was involving the Dwarves. It's a shame that none of the other Eldar could apparently see their worth. They saw off Glaurung in a way none of the Eldar could have matched.

Although I judge the loss of Doriath's forces in this endeavour is not just at the Sons of Fëanor's door. Thingol has a lot to answer for as well. I can understand not wanting to yield anything after the Fëanoreans rather rude and tactless demand, but Melian did counsel him to give up the silmaril and she had never failed him yet. He ignored her advise for similar selfish reasons and look where it would get him, and the rest of Doriath, for that matter.

Interesting though, that from the Falas under Cirdan, forces were sent. Considering Cirdan had recognized Thingol as lord before the arrival of the Noldor, one would expect Cirdan receiving orders from Thingol to abstain from the fight. But this doesn't seem the case. I wonder whether the Falas gained more independance when Doriath closed it borders and Finrod's realm was established between that of Thingol and Cirdan.