Did Amandil ever make it to the Valar?

[Dúnedain]

I'm just curious what everyone thinks about Amandil and his quest to reach the Valar. For those who don't know, Amandil was the Lord of Andúnië and father of Elendil. He was a friend to the Eldar and thus thought of as an Elf-friend, which were normally of the "Faithful" Númenóreans. He was, however, for many years a friend and counsellor to King Ar-Pharazôn. Ar-Pharazôn was the last King of Númenor, who was seduced by Sauron, who he had defeated and brought to Númenor. Sauron convinced him to sail on Valinor, which ultimately led to the Downfall of Númenor. Before this though, Amandil was dismissed by Sauron, which one can assume he did so in order to seduce Ar-Pharazôn in order to sail against the Valar. Amandil was Faithful to the will of the Valar and he sailed into the West to seek the pardon of the Valar for the misdeeds of the Númenóreans.

His fate is unknown, but I was wondering what everyone thought of Amandil's quest and if he actually made it or not?

I think a case can be made in both favors of his quest. I say this because it could be possible that he made it by the will of the Valar as a result of his Faithfulness. It is just another thing we won't know as Tolkien never states it, but what do you think and why?

[Falagar]

I don't think he survived the trip. For one thing, there's no indication that he did and no-one before him, not even ships made by the Teleri with Noldor sailors ever managed to reach it. Only Ëarendil ever did, and that was because he had a Silmaril.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Amandil's voyage was in the 2nd age, after the shadowy Ilses and other defenses were removed. The was nothing stopping him but the law of the valar that men should not sail westsward out of sight of Numenor. The Evels had been regularly making this voyage for most the 2nd age with no problem. As for what might have happened to him there is no record. There is no reason to assume that he did not make it to Aman, sonce the numemoreans ship were apparently seaworthy than the Sindaran ships. (one note of tolkien suggests than NO Numenorean ship ever sank or foundered by natural/sea casues until after their rebellion against the Valar, whereas natural causes had often enough done for Sidarin ships) If he sank, it would only have been by action of the Valar. Most likely he sailed to Aman and was dealt with there with whatever judjment for his breaking the ban of the valar, and in light of mitigating circumstances.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I tend to agree with Falagar, simply because there was no mention of him making it, or returning; the way to Valinor was terrible and of utmost peril, and I see no reason to think that those who attempted the voyage made it, unless it is stated.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Amandil's voyage was in the 2nd age, after the shadowy Ilses and other defenses were removed. The was nothing stoping him but the law of the valar that he should not sail westsward out of sight of Numenor. The Evels had been regulalar making this voyage for most the 2nd age with no problem. As for what might have happened to him there is no record. There is no reason toassume that he did not make it to Aman, sonce the numemoreans ship were apparently than the Sindaran ships. (one note of tolkien suggests than no NO Numenorean ship ever sank or foundered by natural/sea casues until after their rebellion against the Valar.) If he sank, it would only have been by action of the Valar. Most likely he saild to Aman and was dealt with there with whater judjment for his breaking the ban of the valar, and in light of mitigating circumstances.

See, I tend to look at it from your perspective as well. And to answer gwai and falagar, it was never stated he made it, however it was also never stated he didn't. I think the exact statement was "His fate is unknown." Which could really mean anything, lol. It's just another Tom Bombadil arguement I suppose :D

Although, I like to think Amandil did make it for the reason that the Valar knew his intentions. They knew he was Faithful to them and was not of like minds as the "King's Men". I also think that they knew why he was making the journey. Now in the bigger picture, I also like to think he made it and the Valar excepted him in and kept his bloodline close at hand and out of trouble in the sense of allowing it to live on. The Valar knew how important it would be for the Faithful to live on. Let's think about it, it's not by coincidence that the line of Amandil lived on through Aragorn over those many years. There were numerous times when that line should have failed and died off only at the last second it was saved and preserved. I like to think that the line of old, the line of Elros, didn't survive by chance and the reason for this was because of Amandil seeking the pardon of the Valar for those Númenóreans who shunned the ways of the King's Men and instead chose the paths of old, of the Valar.

In my opinion, it makes sense when you really look at the line of Kings/Chieftains and their own downfall. Also look at the line of Kings in Gondor. When did that line start to fail and falter and die off? It died off when the Kings started to get greedy and feel so powerful in themselves that they felt nothing could challenge them. It was in essence a mirror image of those Kings who turned their backs on the Valar in Númenor. Yes, the Kings/Chieftains in the Northern Kingdom were forced to live underground and their kingdoms were destroyed, but yet they themselves were not. Their line lived on, but why? I think it lived on, because they held the customs of old at heart and were still "Faithful" those many years later. They were faithful to their people, they were faithful to their friends (the Eldar), and they were faithful to the Valar. I also think the Valar were faithful to them as well, and that was a result of Amandil...

Though, that's just my theory :D

[Valandil]

I've wondered about this some myself. We can't really 'know' of course, because Tolkien kept it a mystery. Maybe he never decided himself what happened. If it was up to me to fill in the gap though, here's what I'd have had happen:


Amandil and his servants were sort of 'intercepted'... maybe by the Valar, maybe Eru Himself. Sailing into a mist they see in a vision that their mission is understood and that the Valar, and Eru, are somewhat sympathetic. Nevertheless, having already sailed further west than permitted themselves, their lives in the circles of the world are forfeit - but that they will pass painlessly to the place that Eru has prepared for men after their lives are over.

They cannot by their actions atone for the evil that has taken root in Numenor - and if the Numenoreans themselves follow their King and sail west, their doom is sealed, and the pleas of another man, Elf-friend and Faithful though he be, is not enough for their transgression to be set aside. For if the rightful and true leader of those people lead them in this deed, and the people follow, they will be utterly destroyed from the face of the earth (and if Ar-Pharazon was not actually their 'rightful and true leader' - nevertheless, they accepted him as such when he seized the sceptre).

However, because they and others have remained Faithful, the preparations made for flight to Middle Earth by Amandil's son and grandsons will be honored. They will be spared, and carried to Middle Earth, and there they shall establish kingdoms - that the Numenoreans will be given a second chance to remain true.

Then Amandil and his servants are bodily taken away, the mist clears and all that remains is an empty ship.

That's more or less how I'd write it anyway... might change some wording after giving it more thought.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Valandil
I've wondered about this some myself. We can't really 'know' of course, because Tolkien kept it a mystery. Maybe he never decided himself what happened. If it was up to me to fill in the gap though, here's what I'd have had happen:



That's more or less how I'd write it anyway... might change some wording after giving it more thought.

Where was that quote from?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Where was that quote from?

Oh - sorry if I caused confusion. I totally made it up! Just put the 'story part' in quotes, hoping that would make it read easier! :)

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Valandil
Oh - sorry if I caused confusion. I totally made it up! Just put the 'story part' in quotes! :)

Oh, lol :D

[Voronwen]

His fate is unknown, but I was wondering what everyone thought of Amandil's quest and if he actually made it or not?

It is just another thing we won't know as Tolkien never states it, but what do you think and why?

I think he made it. Here's why:

"But whether or no it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manwë hearkened to his prayer, by grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day."

The winds of the storm itself favored the ships of the Faithful, and even threw them onto the land in Middle Earth. Something was protecting them, even making their survival possible.

Even though it was left ambiguous, i think there's enough evidence pointing to his getting through.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

I think he made it to Eressea but not to the undying mainland. He was not allowed to intercede on behalf of Numenor but was allowed to live out his life quietly among the Elves of the lonely isle.

[Voronwen]

I think he made it to Eressea but not to the undying mainland. He was not allowed to intercede on behalf of Numenor but was allowed to live out his life quietly among the Elves of the lonely isle.

That's a nice thought, too. :) I was just talking about Amandil today on another board. If Tolkien had never created Elendil, then Amandil would have been my first love. :o;)

[Jonathan]

It is said about Amandil and his followers that "never again were they heard of by word or sign in this world, nor is there any tale or guess of their fate".

But who came back to tell the tale about Ar-Pharazôn's journey and eventual landing in Aman?‎ There were no returning survivors?

[Gordis]

But who came back to tell the tale about Ar-Pharazôn's journey and eventual landing in Aman?‎ There were no returning survivors?
The Istari may have told the tale...

[Earniel]

Or maybe human poets made it up as the most artistic solution they could come up with. Surely they weren't going to wait to learn the ending, IMO, until the Istari turned up many centuries afterwards. We humans aren't that patient. :p

[Alcuin]

I think Amandil did make it to Eressëa. If he did, either he or one of the Eldar should have been able to communicate this to his son, Elendil.

The palantÃ*ri were gifts of the Eldar to the Faithful Númenóreans near the end of the existence of Númenor. I believe the evidence strongly suggests that the palantÃ*ri were brought in secret during the lifetime of Amandil. Unfinished Tales indicates that the Master Stone remained in Tol Eressea, and that the Elendil stone, which was kept, maintained, and guarded in the Elf-towers of the Tower Hills until Elrond removed it at the end of the Third Age and returned it to the Uttermost West, was “not in accord” with the other stones in Middle-earth, but looked only to the West – to the Master Stone. After the death of Elendil, none of the kings of Arnor bothered to look into the Elendil stone.

This strongly suggests that Elendil had some cause to look into the stone. Perhaps he was looking into past images of the palantÃ*r to gaze upon lost Númenórë; but the greater likelihood is that the palantÃ*ri were a means for (1) the Faithful to communicate with one another; and (2) the Faithful to communicate with their Elven allies in Tol-Eressëa.

We know Elendil watched the stone intently. We don’t know why: as narrator, Tolkien suggests he was gazing longingly into the West to lost Númenor. I say, foo! he was communicating with his friends – and his beloved father, who may well have lived several decades beyond the foundation of the Dúnedain exile kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.

This could explain how the Eldar and the Dúnedain knew what became of Ar-Pharazôn’s invasion fleet, and how they understood what became of Aman and Eressëa. And as Gordis points out, even without this intelligence, they would have learned from the Istari what had transpired. As a final note, it is interesting to note that the Elves continued to look into the Elendil stone until the very end of the Third Age: Gildor Inglorion and the Noldorin elves whom Frodo, Sam, and Pippin met and who fed and kept them overnight at Woodhall after Khamûl the Nazgûl nearly caught them in the Woody End were returning from a pilgrimage to gaze into that palantÃ*r, the only surviving stone of the three Arnorian seeing-stones.

[Voronwen]

We know Elendil watched the stone intently. We don’t know why: as narrator, Tolkien suggests he was gazing longingly into the West to lost Númenor. I say, foo! he was communicating with his friends – and his beloved father, who may well have lived several decades beyond the foundation of the Dúnedain exile kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor.

!!!! :)

I love this theory!

[Gordis]

I like Alcuin's theory very much as well. I think he is right that the source of the info about Pharazon's campaign were the Palantiri.
Likely Elendil simply followed the progress of the Armada in his stones. Aman was not that far, after all, especially for the big stones that later were set in Osgiliath and Amon-Sul. As for the meaning behind the catastrophe, like actions of the Valar and Eru, he could get the explanations later by the Tower Hill stone in communication with the Elves at Tol Eressea.

Yet, I do believe that Amandil perished at sea with all his crew and never made it to Aman.

[Lefty Scaevola]

As for how Middle earth learned of the fate of Ar-Pharazon's invasion, I am confident the Valar communicated widely it one way or another. What would be the point of making an extreme example with showing it to those you would deter? I can imagine Lorien sending nightmares of Ar-Pharazon's and Numenor's disaster to all Middle Earth. I expect that whaterver word the Valar want to get out gets around one way or another.