Chapter 19: Of Beren and Lúthien

[Maedhros]

Gorlim the Unhappy
From The Published Silmarillion: Of Beren and Lúthien
Now among the companions of Barahir was Gorlim son of Angrim. His wife was named Eilinel, and their love was great, ere evil befell. But Gorlim returning from the war upon the marches found his house plundered and forsaken, and his wife gone; whether slain or taken he knew not. Then he fled to Barahir, and of companions his he was the most fierce and desperate; but doubt gnawed his heart, thinking that perhaps Eilinel was not dead. At times he would depart alone and secretly, and visit his house that stood amid the fields and woods he had once possessed; and this became known to the servants of Morgoth.
There he saw Eilinel, and her face was worn with grief and hunger, and it seemed to him that he heard her voice lamenting that he had forsaken her. But even as he cried aloud the light was blown out in the wind; wolves howled, and on his shoulders he felt suddenly the heavy hands of Sauron's hunters. Thus Gorlim was ensnared; and taking him to their camp they tormented, seeking to learn the hidings of Barahir and all his ways. But nothing would Gorlim tell. Then they promised him that he should be released and restored to Eilinel, if he would yield; and being at last worn with pain, and yearning for his wife, he faltered. Then straightaway they brought him into the dreadful presence of Sauron; and Sauron said: 'I hear now that thou wouldst barter with me. What is thy price?'
And Gorlim answered that he should find Eilinel again, and with her be set free; for he thought Eilinel also had been made captive.
Than Sauron smiled, saying: 'That is a small price for so great a treachery. So shall it surely be. Say on!'
Of course as we know, Sauron killed Gorlim, but then an interesting thing happened:
Then Beren was aware in his dream of a form that came to him across the water, and it was a wraith of Gorlim; and it spoke to him declaring his treachery and death, and bade him make haste to warn his father. Then Beren awoke, and sped through the night, and came back to the lair of the outlaws on the second morning. But as he drew near the carrion-birds rose from the ground and sat in the alder-trees beside Tarn Aeluin, and croaked in mockery.
For a more details, we can turn to the Lay of Leithian

There saw he that a shadow quivered
far out upon the water wan,
and grew to a faint form thereon
that glided o'er the silent lake,
and coming slowly, softly spake
and sadly said: 'Lo! Gorlim here,
traitor betrayed, now stands! Nor fear,
but haste! For Morgoth's fingers close
upon thy father's throat. He knows
your secret tryst, your hidden lair',
and all the evil he laid bare
that he had done and Morgoth wrought.
As a note of interest, in the Lay of Leithian, it is Gorlim who comes to Morgoth to betray Barahir and Co., while in the Published Silmarillion, it is Gorlim who is caught by Sauron.
My feeling on this is that, you have to feel pity for Gorlim. It is true that he betrayed Barahir and Co. to Sauron/Morgoth, but it was because of his love for Eilinel, and he eventually warned Beren about that.

[Maedhros]

Meeting of Beren and Lúthien
After his father and companions where slayed, Beren managed to regain the Ring of Barahir from the band of Orcs that took them and he wandered until he ……
All that land was now become filled with evil, and all clean things were departing from it; and Beren was pressed so hard that at last he was forced to flee from Dorthonion. In time of winter and snow he forsook the land and grave of his father, and climbing into the high land of Doriath. There it was put into his heart that he would go down into the Hidden Kingdom, where no mortal foot had trodden. Terrible was his southward journey. Sheer were the precipices of Ered Gorgoroth, and beneath their feet were shadows that were laid before the rising of the Moon. Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked. There spiders of the fell race of Ungoliant abode, spinning their unseen webs in which all living things were snared; and monsters wandered there that were born in the long dark before the Sun, hunting silently with many eyes. No food for Elves or Men was there in that haunted land, but death only. That journey is not accounted least among the great deeds of Beren, but he spoke of it to no one after, lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way, and so came by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders of Doriath. And he passed through the mazes that Melian wove about the kingdom of Thingol, even as she had foretold; for a great doom lay upon him.

And when Beren met with Lúthien:
From the Lays of Beleriand: The Lay of Leithian
Her arms like ivory were gleaming,
her long hair like a cloud was streaming,
her feet atwinkle wandered roaming
in misty mazes in the gloaming;
and glowworms shimmered round her feet,
and moths in moving garland fleet
above her head went wavering wan –
and this the moon now looked upon,
uprisen slow, and round, and white,
above the branches of the night.
Then clearly thrilled her voice and rang;
with sudden ecstasy she sang
a song of nightingales she learned
and with her elvish magic turned
to such bewildering delight
the moon hung moveless in the night.
And this it was that Beren heard,
and this he saw, without a word,
enchanted dumb, yet filled with fire
of such a wonder and desire
that all his mortal mind was dim;
her magic bound and fettered him,
and faint he leaned against a tree.
Forwandered, wayworn, gaunt was he,
his body sick and heart gone cold,
grey in his hair, his youth turned old;
for those that tread that lonely way
a price of woe and anguish pay.
They at the beginning had great joy with them
Beyond his hope she returned to him where he sat in darkness, and long ago in the Hidden Kingdom she laid her hand in his. Thereafter often she came to him, and they went in secret through the woods together from spring to summer; and no others of the Children of Ilúvatar have had joy so great, though the time was brief.

but alas such things are not meant to last…
But Daeron the minstrel also loved Lúthien, and he espied her meetings with Beren, and betrayed them to Thingol. Then the King was filled with anger, for Lúthien he loved above all things, setting her above all the princes of the Elves; whereas mortal Men he did not even take into his service. Therefore he spoke in grief and amazement to Lúthien; but she would reveal nothing, until he swore an oath to her that he would neither slay Beren nor imprison him. But he sent his servants to lay hands on him and lead him to Menegroth as a malefactor; and Lúthien forestalling them led Beren herself before the throne of Thingol, as if he were an honoured guest.

It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.
And so the Die is Cast
But Thingol looked in silence upon Lúthien; and he thought in his heart: 'Unhappy Men, children of little lords and brief kings, shall such as these lay hands on you, and yet live?' Then breaking the silence he said: 'I see the ring, son of Barahir, and I perceive that you are proud, and deem yourself mighty. But a father's deeds, even had his service been rendered to me, avail not to win the daughter of Thingol and Melian. See now! I too desire a treasure that is withheld. For rock and steel and the fires of Morgoth keep the jewel that I would possess against all the powers of the Elf-kingdoms. Yet I hear you say that bonds such as these do not daunt you. Go your way therefore! Bring to me in your hand a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown; and then, if she will, Lúthien may set her hand in yours. Then you shall have my jewel; and though the fate of Arda lie within the Silmarils, yet you shall hold me generous.'
So it begins, the quest for the Silmaril.

[Maedhros]

Oath vs Oath
So our friend Beren when from Doriath to …….
It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren passed through Doriath unhindered, and came at length to the region of the Twilight Meres, and the Fens of Sirion; and leaving Thingol's land he climbed the hills above the Falls of Sirion, where the river plunged underground with great noise. Thence he looked westward, and through the mist and rains that lay upon those hills he saw Talath Dirnen, the Guarded Plain, stretching between Sirion and Narog; and beyond he descried afar the highlands of Taur-en-Faroth that rose above Nargothrond. And being destitute, without hope or counsel, he turned his feet thither.

Then Beren reaches Nargothrond and with the aid of his ring, he is taken to the King….
Thus Beren came before King Finrod Felagund; and Felagund knew him, needing no ring to remind him of the kin of Bëor and of Barahir. Behind closed doors they sat, and Beren told of the death of Barahir, and of all that had befallen hi in Doriath; and he wept, recalling Lúthien and their joy together. But Felagund heard his tale in wonder and disquiet; and he knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel. He spoke then to Beren in heaviness of heart. 'It is plain that Thingol desires your death; but it seems that this doom goes beyond his purpose, and that the Oath of Fëanor is again at work. For the Silmarils are cursed with an oath of hatred, and he that even names them in desire moves a great power from slumber; and the sons of Fëanor would lay all the Elf-kingdoms in ruin rather than suffer any other than themselves to win or possess a Silmaril, for the Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin are dwelling in my halls; and though I, Finarfin's son, am King, they have won a strong power in the realm, and lead many of their own people. They have shown friendship to me in every need, but I fear that they will show neither love nor mercy to you, if your quest be told. Yet my own oath holds; and thus we are all ensnared.'
So we have a battle of Oaths, the sons of Fëanor Celegorm and Curufin with their oath, against that one of FF. Ain’t this interesting, pride vs pride. The result of this clashes of pride is that……
Then King Felagund spoke before his people, recalling the deeds of Barahir, and his vow and he declared that it was laid upon him to aid the son of Barahir in his need, and he sought the help of his chieftains. Then Celegorm arose amid the throng, and drawing his sword he cried: 'Be he friend or foe, whether demon of Morgoth, of Elf, or child of Men, or any other living thing in Arda, neither law, nor love, nor league of hell, nor might of the Valar, nor any power of wizardry, shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Fëanor's sons, if he take or find a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the world ends.'
And now they murmured that Finarfin's son was not as a Vala to command them, and they turned their faces from him. But the curse of Mandos came upon the brothers, and dark thoughts arose in their hearts, thinking to send forth Felagund alone to his death, and to usurp, it might be, the throne of Nargothrond; for they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor.
And Felagund seeing that he was forsaken took from his head the silver crown of Nargothrond and cast it at his feet, saying: 'Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must hold my bond. Yet if there be any on whom the shadow of out curse has not yet fallen, I should find at least a few to follow me, and should not go hence as a beggar that is thrust from the gates.' There were ten that stood by him; and the chief of them, who was named Edrahil, stooping lifted the crown and asked that it be given to a steward until Felagund's return. 'for you remain my king, and theirs,' he said, 'whatever betide.'
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?

[Maedhros]

To Taur-nu-Fuin and Sauron
On an evening of autumn Felagund and Beren set out from Nargothrond with their ten companions; and they journeyed beside Narog to his source in the Falls of Ivrin. Beneath the Shadowy Mountains they came upon a company of Orcs, and slew them all in their camp by night; and they took their gear and their weapons. By the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; and thus disguised they came far upon their northward road, and ventured into the western pass, between Ered Wethrin and the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin. But Sauron in his tower was ware of them,
At this point in the story, I think that it is the first time that we can see that an Elf had the power to disguise his appearance and that of his party to that of Orcs. That ability would be useful in spy missions. I wonder if Finrod was the exception of the rule (Lúthien) or if the Eldar did that often?
Then Sauron stripped from their disguise, and they stood before him naked and afraid. But though their kinds were revealed, Sauron could not discover their names or their purposes.
He cast them therefore into a deep pit, dark and silent, and threatened to slay them cruel, unless one would betray the truth to him. From time to time they saw two eyes kindled in the dark, and a werewolf devoured one of the companions; but none betrayed their lord.

In the time when Sauron cast Beren into the pit a weight of horror came upon Lúthien's heart; and going to Melian for counsel she learned that Beren lay in the dungeons of Tol-in-Gaurhoth without hope of rescue. Then Lúthien, perceiving that no help would come from any other on earth, resolved to fly from Doriath and come herself to him; but she sought the aid of Daeron, and he betrayed her purpose because he would not deprive Lúthien of the lights of heaven, lest she fail and fade, and yet would restrain her, he caused a house to be built from which she should not escape. [quote]
How did Melian know where Beren was imprisioned? And from here our heroine Lúthien faces betrayal after betrayal. She of course managed to escaped from her prision in Doriath.
[quote] It is told in the Lay of Leithian how she escaped from the house in HÃ*rilorn; for she put forth her arts of enchantment, and caused her hair to grow to great length, and of it she wove a dark robe that wrapped her beauty like a shadow, and it was laden with a spell of sleep. Of the strands that remained she twined a rope, and she let it down from her window; and as the end swayed above the guards that sat beneath the house they fell into a deep slumber. Then Lúthien climbed from her prison, and shrouded in her shadowy cloak she escaped from all eyes, and vanished out of Doriath.

Now our friends Celegorm and Curfin come into action.
Thus they broke off the hunt and returned to Nargothrond, and Lúthien was betrayed; for they held her fast, and took away her cloak, and she was not permitted to pass the gates or to speak with any save the brothers, Celegorm and Curufin. For now, believing that Beren and Felagund were prisoners beyond hope of aid, they purposed to let the King perish, and to keep Lúthien , and force Thingol to give her the mightiest of princes of the Noldor. And they did not purpose to seek the Silmarils by craft or war, or to suffer any others to do so, until they had all the might of the Elf-kingdoms under their hands. Orodreth had no power to withstand them, for they swayed the hearts of the people of Nargothrond; and Celegorm sent messengers to Thingol urging his suit.

It seems that our heroine is kind of naïve here. Didn’t she know about the Oath of Fëanor that the brothers had? Would they really allow Beren and Lúthien to take one of the gems of their father? Orodreth seems to be a wuss. He was overpowered by the C brothers. It is interesting to note that originally in the Tale of Turambar, Orodreth has a very strong personality, and as the legendarium evolved, he seemed to lost that quality and became weaker. As a side note, the name Orodreth is invalid. It should be Arothir.
From The Peoples of ME: The Shibboleth of Fëanor
The names of Sindarin form by which they were usually called in later song and legend were Finrod, Angrod (with wife Eðellos and son Arothir), Aegnor, and Galadriel.
In names however that ended in old words referring to status, rank, profession, race or kindred and so on the adjectival element still in Sindarin, following ancient models, might be placed first. Quenya Artaher (stem artahēr-) 'noble lord' was correctly Sindarized as Arothir.
The name of Angrod's son (still retaining the identity of 'Orodreth') was then changed from Artanáro to Artaresto. In an isolated note found with the genealogies, scribbled at great speed but nonetheless dated, August 1965, my father suggested that the best solution to the problem of Gil-galad's parentage was to find him in 'the son of Orodreth', who is here given the Quenya name of Artaresto, and continued:
Finrod left his wife in Valinor and had no children in exile. Angrod's son was Artaresto, who was beloved by Finrod and escaped when Angrod was slain, and dwelt with Finrod. Finrod made him his 'steward' and he succeeded him in Nargothrond. His Sindarin name was Rodreth (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains .. ..... His children were Finduilas and Artanáro = Rodnor later called Gil-galad. (Their mother was a Sindarin lady of the North. She called her son Gil-galad.) Rodnor Gil-galad escaped and eventually came to Sirion's Mouth and was King of the Ñoldor there.
The words that I cannot read contain apparently a preposition and a proper name, and this latter could be faroth (the High Faroth west of the river Narog). - In the last of the genealogical tables Artanaro (Rodnor) called Gil-galad appears, with the note that 'he escaped and dwelt at Sirion's Mouth'. The only further change was the rejection of the name Artaresto and its replacement by Artaher, Sindarin Arothir; and thus in the excursus (note 23) Arothir [Orodreth] is named as Finrod's 'kinsman and steward', and (note 47) Gil-galad is 'the son of Arothir, nephew of Finrod'.

[Maedhros]

Of course Huan helped Lúthien escape from Nargothrond to help Beren.
Now Huan devised a plan for the aid of Lúthien; and coming at a time of night he brought her cloak, and for the first time he spoke, giving her counsel. Then he led her by secret ways out of Nargothrond, and they fled north together; and he humbled his pride and suffered her to ride upon him in the fashion of a steed, even as the Orcs did at times upon great wolves. Thus they made great speed, for Huan was swift and tireless.

The Death of an Elf-King
In the pits of Sauron Beren and Felagund lay, and all their companions were now dead; but Sauron purposed to keep Felagund to the last, for he perceived that he was a Noldo of great might and wisdom, and he deemed that in him lay the secret of their errand. But when the wolf came for Beren, Felagund put forth all his power, and burst his bonds; and he wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth; yet he himself was wounded to the death. Then he spoke to Beren, saying: 'I go now to my long rest in the timeless halls beyond the seas and the Mountains of Aman. It will be long ere I am seen among the Noldor again; and it may be that we shall not meet a second time in death or life, for the fates of our kindreds are apart. Farewell!' He died then in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath; but Beren mourned beside him in despair.

So died Finrod Felagund. I can understand the despair that Beren felt but, I wonder if a man such as Húrin Thalion would have felt despair in that situation. He endured Morgoth’s gaze, and he was himself without hope and yet he never faltered.
Of course Lúthien and Huan went to rescue Beren and they fought with Sauron.
But no wizardry nor spell, neither fang nor venom, nor devil's art nor beast-strength , could overthrow Huan without forsaking his body utterly. Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'
Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there; and Huan released him. And immediately he took the form of a vampire, great as a dark cloud across the moon, and he fled, dripping blood from his throat upon the trees, and came to Tar-nu-Fuin, and dwelt there, filling it with horror.

I wonder if Lúthien could have prevented somehow the re-incarnation of Sauron if she wished too. It seems that she had the power to greatly debilitate the spirit or fëar of Sauron to the point of not allowing him to incarnate himself again. And here we reach, I think for the first time, a vampire in ME. I wonder if there were a lot of them in the service of Morgoth.
With the beating of Sauron, there came of course, shaming to the C brothers and they lost their hold of power in Nargothrond.
There was tumult in Nargothrond. For thither now returned many Elves that had been prisoners in the isle of Sauron; and a clamour arose that no words of Celegorm could still. They lamented bitterly the fall of Felagund their king, saying that a maiden had dared that which the sons of Fëanor had not dared to do; but many perceived that it was treachery rather than fear that had guided Celegorm and Curufin. There fore the hearts of the people of Nargothrond were released from their dominion, and turned again to the house of Finarfin; and they obeyed Orodreth. But he would not suffer them to slay the brothers, as some desired, for the spilling of kindred blood by kin would bind the cures of Mandos more closely upon them all. Yet neither bread nor rest would he grant to Celegorm and Curufin within his realm, and he swore that there should be little love between Nargothrond and the sons of Fëanor there after.

Orodreth seems to have taken charge of the situation and he seemed almost regal at this point, and he pardoned the brothers. One has to wonder if the others sons of Fëanor would have acted the same way as the C brothers. I have a hard time figuring that someone like Maitimo Russandol would have done such a low deed as they did.
It is to be noted that Celebrimbor stayed in Nargothrond and that Huan returned to Celegorm. That hound was faithful.
But our friends, the C brothers keep making their great deeds and decide to take on Beren and Lúthien.
Then Beren throttled Curufin; but death was near him, for Celegorm rode upon him with a spear. In that hour Huan forsook the service or Celegorm, and sprang up on him, so that his horse swerved aside, and would not approach Beren because of the terror of the great hound. Celegorm cursed both hound and horse, but Huan was unmoved. Then Lúthien rising forbade the slaying of Curufin; but Beren despoiled him of his gear and weapons, and took his knife, sheathless by his side; iron it would cleave as if it were green wood. Then Beren lifting Curufin flung him from him, and bade him walk now back to his noble kinsfolk, who might teach him to turn his valour to worthier use. 'Your horse,' he said, 'I keep for the service of Lúthien, and it may be accounted happy to be free of such a master.'

Then Curufin cursed Beren under cloud and sky. 'Go hence,' he said, 'unto a swift and bitter death.' Celegorm took him beside him on his horse, and the brothers made then as if to ride away; and Beren turned away and took no heed of their words. But Curufin, being filled with shame and malice, took the bow of Celegorm and shot back as they went; and the arrow was aimed at Lúthien. Huan leaping caught it in his mouth; but Curufin shot again, and Beren sprang before Lúthien, and the dart smote him in the breast.

Beren was later healed by an herb brought by Huan. I wonder how Huan felt at that time for serving that long a time with Celegorm?

[Maedhros]

Huan Speaks
Then for the second time Huan spoke with words; and he counselled Beren, saying: 'From the shadow of death you can no longer save Lúthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Lúthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you--hopeless, yet not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road. But my heart forebodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our three paths lead back to Doriath, and we may meet before the end.'

Die Fledermauss and the Werewolf go to Angband
Then Beren perceived that Lúthien could not be divided from the doom that lay upon them both, and he sought no longer to dissuade her. By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Lúthien he was arrayed now in the name of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of ThurIngwëthil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

Of course as they came to Angband they had a little trouble with the visitors.
Now Carcharoth espied them from afar, and he was filled with doubt; for news had long been brought to Angband that Draugluin was dead. Therefore when they approached he denied them entry, and bade them stand; and he drew near with menace, scenting something strange in the air about them. But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Lúthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.

The power of Lúthien is great. Now imagine if Thingol had used her daughter to make sleep all of her enemies in a battle? That would have been a great advantage.
For they came to the seat of Morgoth in his nethermost hall that was upheld by horror, lit by fire, and filled with weapons of death and torment. There Beren slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne; but Lúthien was stripped of her disguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. She was not daunted by his eyes; and she named her own name, and offered her service to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought. Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her.

Of course Beren had to sneak to the throne of Morgoth. Jeje. I wonder what Morgoth’s dark thoughts were? Notice that she is the second Children of Ilúvatar not to be daunted by the eyes of Morgoth. And of course our villain felt asleep too.
As a dead beast Beren lay upon the ground; but Lúthien touching him with her hand aroused him, and he cast aside the wolf-hame. Then he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril.
As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not. It came then into Beren's mind that he would go beyond his vow, and bear out of Angband all three of the Jewels of Fëanor; but such was not the doom of the Silmarils. The knife Angrist snapped, and a shard of the blade flying smote the cheek of Morgoth. He groaned and stirred, and all the host of Angband moved in sleep.

Beren felt asleep too. And our friend became greedy too. Because of the use of the power of Lúthien, she was weary and their disguises were removed. I wonder if Beren had not been so greedy, could they have fled from Angand freely. Now our friend Carcharoth, took the silmaril by bitting Beren’s hand off.
But Carcharoth looked upon that holy jewel and was not daunted, and the devouring spirit within him awoke to sudden fire; and gaping he took suddenly the hand within his jaws, and he bit it off at the wrist. Then swiftly all his inwards were filled with a flame of anguish, and the Silmaril seared his accursed flesh. Howling he led before them, and the walls of the valley of the Gate echoes with the clamour of his torment. So terrible did he become in his madness that all the creatures of Morgoth that abode in that valley, or were upon any of the roads that led thither, fled far away' for he slew all living things that stood in his path, and burst from the North with ruin upon the world. Of all the terrors that came ever into Beleriand ere Angband's fall the madness of Carcharoth was the most dreadful; for the power of the Silmaril was hidden within him.

Beren was healed by Lúthien and as it seems with most of the most perilous circumstances, they were rescued by the Eagles. Just in time, I might add and they were returned to the borders of Doriath.

[Maedhros]

Thereafter Beren was named Erchamion, which is the One-handed; and suffering was graven in his face. But at last he was drawn back to life by the love of Lúthien, and he arose, and together they walked in the woods once more. And they did not hasten from that place, for it seemed fair to them. Lúthien indeed was willing to wander in the wild without returning, forgetting house and people and all the glory of the Elf-kingdoms, and for a time Beren was content; but he could not for long forget his oath to return to Menegroth, nor would he withhold Lúthien from Thingol for ever. For he held by the law of Men, deeming it perilous to set at naught the will of the father, save at the last need; and is seemed also to him unfit that one so royal and fair as Lúthien should live always in the woods, as the rude hunters among Men, without home or honour or the fair things which are the delight of the queens of the Eldalië. Therefore after a while he persuaded her, and their footsteps forsook the houseless lands; and he passed into Doriath, leading Lúthien home. So their doom willed it.

Even with all of what Thingol did to Beren, he would not forsake his daughter to him forever. I wonder if Thingol felt the same way!
We now have Carcharoth killing lots of people and venturing in the protected woods of Doriath.
Then Beren led Lúthien before the throne of Thingol her father; and he looked in wonder upon Beren, whom he had thought dead; but he loved him not, because of the woes that he had brought upon Doriath. But Beren knelt before him, and said: 'I return according to my word. I am come now to claim my own.'
And Thingol answered: 'What of your quest, and of your vow?'
But Beren said: 'It is fulfilled. Even now a Silmaril is in my hand.'
Then Thingol said: 'Show it to me!'
And Beren put forth his left hand, slowly opening its fingers; but it was empty. Then he held up his right arm; and from that hour he named himself Camlost, the Empty-handed.
Then Thingol's mood was softened; and Beren sat before his throne upon the left, and Lúthien upon the right, and they told all the tale of the Quest, while all there listened and were filled with amazement. And it seemed to Thingol that this Man was unlike all other mortal Men, and among the great in Arda, and the love of Lúthien a thing new and strange; and he perceived that their doom might not be withstood by any power of the world. Therefore at the last he yielded his will, and Beren took the hand of Lúthien before the throne of her father.

The Hunt for the Wolf
Therefore, since daily Carcharoth drew nearer to Menegroth, they prepared the Hunting of the Wolf; of all pursuits of beasts whereof tales tell the most perilous. To that chase went Huan the Hound of Valinor, and Mablung of the Heavy Hand, and Beleg Strongbow, and Beren Erchamion, and Thingol King of Doriath. They rode forth in the morning and passed over the River Esgalduin; but Lúthien remained behind at the gates of Menegroth. A dark shadow fell upon her and it seemed to her that the sun had sickened and turned black.

There is always present the premonition of the Eldar is it not.
Beren stood beside Thingol, and suddenly they were aware that Huan had left their side. Then a great baying awoke in the thicket; for Huan becoming impatient and desiring to look upon this wolf had gone in alone to dislodge him. But Carcharoth avoided him, and bursting form the thorns leaped suddenly upon Thingol. Swiftly Beren strode before him with a spear, but Carcharoth swept it aside and felled him, biting at his breast. In that moment Huan leaped from the thicket upon the back of the Wolf, and they fell together fighting bitterly; and no battle of wolf and hound has been like to it, for in the baying of Huan was heard the voice of the horns of Oromë and the wrath of the Valar, but in the howls of Carcharoth was the hate of Morgoth and malice crueller than teeth of steel; and the rocks were rent by their clamour and fell from on high and choked the falls of Esgalduin. There they fought to the death; but Thingol gave no heed, for he knelt by Beren, seeing that he was sorely hurt
Isn’t it ironic that Beren saved Thingol’s life. Carcharoth and Huan were both killed, thus fulfilling the prophecy of Huan.
Mablung and Beleg came hastening to the King's aid, but when they looked upon what was done they cast aside their spears and wept. Then Mablung took a knife and ripped up the belly of the Wolf; and within he was well nigh all consumed as with a fire, but the hand of Beren that held the jewel was yet incorrupt. But when Mablung reached forth to touch it, the hand was no more, and the Silmaril lay there unveiled, and the light of it filled the shadows of the forest all about hem. Then quickly and in fear Mablung took it and set it in Beren's living hand; and Beren was aroused by the touch of the Silmaril, and held it aloft, and bade Thingol receive it. 'Now is the Quest achieved,' he said, 'and my doom full-wrought'; and he spoke no more.

And now our friend Thingol is sad at the death of Beren.

[Maedhros]

Le pouvoir del’amour
For the spirit of Beren at her bidding tarried in the halls of Mandos, unwilling to leave the world, until Lúthien came to say her last farewell upon the dim shores of the Outer Sea, whence Men that die set out never to return. But the spirit of Lúthien fell down into darkness, and at the last it fled, and her body lay like a flower that is suddenly cut off and lies for a while unwithered on the grass.
The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall ever hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and the listening the Valar grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since.
Therefore he summoned Beren, and even as Lúthien had spoken in the hour of his death they met again beyond the Western Sea. But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed.
These were the choices that he gave to Lúthien. Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known. Thither Beren could not come. For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, which is the gift of Ilúvatar to Men. But the other choice was this: that she might return to Middle-earth, and take with her Beren, there to dwell again, but without certitude of life or joy. Then she would become mortal, land subject to a second death, even as he; and ere long she would leave the world for ever, and her beauty become only a memory in song.
This doom she chose, forsaking the Blessed Realm, and putting aside all claim to kinship with those that dwell there; that thus whatever grief might lie in wait, the fates of Beren and Lúthien might be joined, and their paths lead together beyond the confines of the world. So it was that alone of the Eldalië she has died indeed, and left the world long ago. Yet in her choice the Two Kindreds have been joined; and she is the forerunner of many in whom the Eldar see yet, thought all the world is changed, the likeness of Lúthien the beloved, whom they have lost.

Amazing is it not this tale ? I tried a new aproach to the chapter intro, I hope that people would like it.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Very nice job Meadhros. Thank you for taking the re-assignment.

Just a few points I want to discuss:

It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.
And so the Die is CastWell, let's face it, Thingol in the beginning had no great love for Men, and this is his daughter we're talking about. Yes, Thingol married a Maia, but I don't think it ever came into his thought that he was inferior to her. As for Luthien's choice, even had it been an Elf, or even a Maia, they would not have been good enough for her in Thingol's eyes.
But the curse of Mandos came upon the brothers, and dark thoughts arose in their hearts, thinking to send forth Felagund alone to his death, and to usurp, it might be, the throne of Nargothrond; for they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor.I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?I am not certian that the entire host of Nargothrond would have gone anyway. The realm would have been left unattended and vulnerable. But who's to say that had more than ten gone on the quest, that the outcome would have been the same? It may have succeeded and the deaths of the ten companions along with the king would have not happened. Who knows? But either way, I don't and wouldn't credit Celegorm and Curufin with anything positive that came from their actions involving the quest.
At this point in the story, I think that it is the first time that we can see that an Elf had the power to disguise his appearance and that of his party to that of Orcs. That ability would be useful in spy missions. I wonder if Finrod was the exception of the rule (Lúthien) or if the Eldar did that often? Interesting. I doubt this is something that the Eldar did all the time, or that all the Eldar were capable of doing, otherwise, aside from Beren, Finrod's ten knights would have disguised themselves without his help. Finrod seems to have been a very powerful Elf in many ways as far as arts (magic). He and Luthien do seem to have some similar abilities, Luthien being more powerful than he though, such as the ability to sing songs of power as Finrod did with Sauron. I have always considered his song in the camp, when he first encounters the Edain, to be somewhat of a song of power, because he was able to bring clear visions before their eyes of what was in the song.

[Artanis]

How great Rusco!
7 leading posts must be a new record.
Did you finally knock down the PC occupant? :D
Originally posted by Maedhros
As a note of interest, in the Lay of Leithian, it is Gorlim who comes to Morgoth to betray Barahir and Co., while in the Published Silmarillion, it is Gorlim who is caught by Sauron.Weren't there two versions of the lay, where the first included a deliberate treason on Gorlim's side, while the latter was in line with the published Sil?
My feeling on this is that, you have to feel pity for Gorlim. It is true that he betrayed Barahir and Co. to Sauron/Morgoth, but it was because of his love for Eilinel, and he eventually warned Beren about that. I too feel sorry for Gorlim as he appears in the published Sil. He did his best, but faced a power too great and too cruel for him to resist.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's But that is why it was a dark design. Their realms had been shattered by the Braggolach, and Finrod provided them with shelter and succour, despite what must have been substantial misgivings on his part. He felt duty-bound to do so. And how do the brothers repay him? By attempting to usurp his realm. Very honorable, those sons of Feanor.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Bacchus
But that is why it was a dark design. Their realms had been shattered by the Braggolach, and Finrod provided them with shelter and succour, despite what must have been substantial misgivings on his part. He felt duty-bound to do so. And how do the brothers repay him? By attempting to usurp his realm. Very honorable, those sons of Feanor.

What my problem is, is that the text seems to indicate that they believed they were entitled to it because they were of the eldest line. I do see your point though. Yes, those guys were a piece of work.

Nice to see you here Bacchus. As you can see, we have quite a project going on here that I am very proud of. Everyone has worked long and hard on it, and we owe Meadhros a debt of gratitude for starting it.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by Maedhros
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death? Nope, as well demonstrated in this thread
http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9869
where you yet refuse to accept my superior judgement. :p

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor'sI agree with Bacchus, Celegorm and Curufin knew they were not entitled to the throne, but nonetheless they tried to get into that position. Isn't that what 'usurp' means, to take someone's position unlawfully and/or by force? The High Kingship had passed from the Fëanoreans against their will, and maybe they just wanted the power they thought they should have had. Thus the text "for they were of the eldest line ... "

[Maedhros]

I am not certian that the entire host of Nargothrond would have gone anyway. The realm would have been left unattended and vulnerable. But who's to say that had more than ten gone on the quest, that the outcome would have been the same? It may have succeeded and the deaths of the ten companions along with the king would have not happened. Who knows? But either way, I don't and wouldn't credit Celegorm and Curufin with anything positive that came from their actions involving the quest.
If Sauron could have removed Finrod Felagund's disguise, what hope would they have had against Morgoth? Remember, the quest was for them to retrieve a Silmaril. I know that you don't like them but good thing that Celegorm was there. :D
Weren't there two versions of the lay, where the first included a deliberate treason on Gorlim's side, while the latter was in line with the published Sil?
That is correct.
Did you finally knock down the PC occupant?
I was babysitting a cybercafe from 5 to 11 pm, so I had a lot of time to make my intro.
I agree with Bacchus, Celegorm and Curufin knew they were not entitled to the throne, but nonetheless they tried to get into that position. Isn't that what 'usurp' means, to take someone's position unlawfully and/or by force? The High Kingship had passed from the Fëanoreans against their will, and maybe they just wanted the power they thought they should have had. Thus the text "for they were of the eldest line ... "
Well, you have to consider that Arothir was kind of a wuss and could not stop the C brothers.

[Bacchus]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What my problem is, is that the text seems to indicate that they believed they were entitled to it because they were of the eldest line. I do see your point though. Yes, those guys were a piece of work.

Nice to see you here Bacchus. As you can see, we have quite a project going on here that I am very proud of. Everyone has worked long and hard on it, and we owe Meadhros a debt of gratitude for starting it.
They very likely did believe that they were entitled to take over beacuse if the seniority of their line. The Feanorians were nothing if not arrogant, and Celegorm and Curufin were arguably the two worst (although a case can be made for Caranthir as well).

I've been quite impressed with the project, and can't wait for Chs 20 and 21-my two favorite chapters.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Maedhros
If Sauron could have removed Finrod Felagund's disguise, what hope would they have had against Morgoth? Remember, the quest was for them to retrieve a Silmaril. I know that you don't like them but good thing that Celegorm was there. :DNope. Beren and Luthien proved that Morgoth was not unassailable, and it was just the two of them and Huan. Also, the fact that Fingolfin faught wth Morgoth in single combat and wounded him 7 times tells me that had more Elves gone on the quest with Finrod, things may have turned out better. As for Sauron, had there been more on the quest, he may not have bothered with them, and the encounter between Sauron and Finrod might not have happened.

Well, you have to consider that Arothir was kind of a wuss and could not stop the C brothers. Orodreth was weak of will I think, but he at least drove them out of Nargothrond when he discovered their malice toward Finrod and Luthien. He also used good judgement I think in not allowing the people to slay them, knowing it would bind the curse of Mandos tighter around them because of the Kinslaying.

[Maedhros]

Nope. Beren and Luthien proved that Morgoth was not unassailable, and it was just the two of them and Huan. Also, the fact that Fingolfin faught wth Morgoth in single combat and wounded him 7 times tells me that had more Elves gone on the quest with Finrod, things may have turned out better. As for Sauron, had there been more on the quest, he may not have bothered with them, and the encounter between Sauron and Finrod might not have happened.
How many is good? If they were too many elves with FF, Sauron would have been more suspicious, and a large force would have attracted the attention of more servants of Morgoth.
It seems to me that Finrod Felagund would have not had the power that Lúthien had to make Morgoth sleep, making the attempt to claim the Silmaril almost impossible.
Good thing that Celegorm was there. ;)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
At this point in the story, I think that it is the first time that we can see that an Elf had the power to disguise his appearance and that of his party to that of Orcs. That ability would be useful in spy missions. I wonder if Finrod was the exception of the rule (Lúthien) or if the Eldar did that often?I wonder if Tolkien would have changed this if had ever come around to rewrite this story. It seems to me like something better fitted with the elder stories, like the tales.

On the other hand, since Sauron is presented as a sorcerer rather than a warrior, it would be fitting to have an Elf with great magis skills to challenge him, as in the song duel.
It seems that our heroine is kind of naïve here. Didn’t she know about the Oath of Fëanor that the brothers had? Would they really allow Beren and Lúthien to take one of the gems of their father?It's diffucult to see how Lúthien could have known about the Oath and still revealed herself and her purpose to C&C. She was not stupid. But how this essential information may have escaped her I don't know. She had lived all her life within well-protected borders, but she still knew about the evils that befell outside her father's realm. Maybe it was her father's careless attitude towards the Fëanorean Oath that had influenced her, and perhaps she didn't realise how far Fëanor's sons would go to fulfil it. Though the latter seems unlikely too. An oath is an oath.

Another of Lúthien's actions that I do not understand, is when she went to Daeron for aid to fly from Doriath, after he had betrayed her and Beren the first time. Didn't she know who had informed Thingol about her meetings with Beren?
I wonder if Lúthien could have prevented somehow the re-incarnation of Sauron if she wished too. It seems that she had the power to greatly debilitate the spirit or fëar of Sauron to the point of not allowing him to incarnate himself again.I think it's difficult to believe that she could have had that sort of power, whatever the text indicates. Sauron was not permanently incarnated, and was not bound to his form. I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to reclothe himself even if he forsook his body.
Orodreth seems to have taken charge of the situation and he seemed almost regal at this point, and he pardoned the brothers.He has his moment of greatness there. But it's really his people who allow him to take charge again, he didn't actually do anything to make it happen. But then, it's difficult to see what he could have done, any action to regain authority could very well have ended with an internal fight, and the people of C&C were numerous, and still more people followed them.
One has to wonder if the others sons of Fëanor would have acted the same way as the C brothers. I have a hard time figuring that someone like Maitimo Russandol would have done such a low deed as they did.Personally I think neither Maitimo nor Maglor would have acted this way. They would have pursued anyone who had a Silmaril, but I don't think they would have tried to push Finrod or Arothir from the throne of Nargothrond, nor treated Lúthien the way C&C did. I don't know about Caranthir, and less about the twins. But neither of them seem ever to reflect upon or regret the Oath, which make me think that they would be more likely to perform evil deeds elsewhere too.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Artanis
Personally I think neither Maitimo nor Maglor would have acted this way. They would have pursued anyone who had a Silmaril, but they would not have tried to push Finrod or Arothir from the throne of Nargothrond, and they would not have treated Lúthien the way C&C did. I don't know about Caranthir, and less about the twins. But neither of them seem to reflect upon or regret the Oath, which make me think that they would be more likely to perform evil deeds elsewhere too.
Are we going to take The Shibboleth into account here about the Amrod and Amras? Though one of the brothers actually died there I still think it's relevant (especially thinking of Ambarusso's comment "Fell and fey you are become").

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Maedhros
Beren was healed by Lúthien and as it seems with most of the most perilous circumstances, they were rescued by the Eagles. Just in time, I might add and they were returned to the borders of Doriath. Too bad for Beren that he had swooned! When he had a chance to have a magnificent view of Gondolin from above!
Even with all of what Thingol did to Beren, he would not forsake his daughter to him forever. I wonder if Thingol felt the same way!:) Beren was indeed a noble man, wasn't he.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Falagar
Are we going to take The Shibboleth into account here about the Amrod and Amras? Though one of the brothers actually died there I still think it's relevant (especially thinking of Ambarusso's comment "Fell and fey you are become"). Yes, I like the story about Ambarto dying in the ship, and Ambarusso's comment is relevant. But there's nothing elsewhere in Tolkien's work that supports the Shibboleth on thins point, and even if it is one of his last writings, I think it is difficult to incorporate it. In the published Sil we hear about Maitimo's and Maglor's weariness and sicknes of heart because of the Oath, but none of the other brothers seem to have any regrets.

[Falagar]

True, but then again we don't get to hear much of them at all, and whenever they are mentioned they are just together with "the rest" (of the brothers). Here we actually get to hear a bit about how they think. And true, it'll be hard to incorporate it with the rest of the Silmarillion in some ways, but basically we can only remove Amras from "Amrod and Amras...". ;)

[Lefty Scaevola]

You could just imagine Amrod as having gone insame and recreated his twin as a second personality, and the 5 other brothers humoring him. :o

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
You could just imagine Amrod as having gone insame and recreated his twin as a second personality, and the 5 other brothers humoring him. :o
Probably why they (he) went away and hid in the east of Beleriand. *tries to imagine what kind of songs Maglor could have made about him*

[Artanis]

Haha, you guys are funny. :p

Falagar, you're right in that we don't hear much of A&A. I wish we did. I'd like to hear more about Caranthir too. Though I seem to remember from one version of the Sil (not the published) that A&A in fact were the leaders in the third kinslaying.

It's funny, we have M&M, C&C and A&A. Caranthir is the leftover. :D

[matthew]

Okay Maedhros. Anyone that leaves 8 two foot long posts in a row is officially crazy. And by the way, I read the lay of Leithan, so your outline isn't helping much :D

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by matthew
Okay Maedhros. Anyone that leaves 8 two foot long posts in a row is officially crazy. And by the way, I read the lay of Leithan, so your outline isn't helping much :D Well, in all the intros to chapters in the project there are long posts.It's necessary. People have done a great job with all of the intros.

[Beor]

Hey, feeling like just a little guy posting here (you guys are way smarter than me, man), but I do have a question.

I was reading HoME: Book of Lost Tales 2 a while back (havent had much time to read lately), so its not too fresh in my mind, but any ideas on why Tolkien switched from the cats of Morgoth to the one wolf (whos name I dont know how to spell, Carcaroth? something to that effect)? I'm sure Chris T. explains it, but he usually confuses me.

Just wondering (also, I've wanted to get in on these discussions, but all my questions seem like something I could look up if I wasnt lazy, and I dont have enought time to read the books to come up with a good discussion, so this will have to do)

[Artanis]

Hm. It's a long time since I read the Tale of Tinúviel, but I know the Tale to be very different from how the story of Beren and Lúthien appeared in the later versions of the Silmarillion. I don't think CRT ever have explained why Tevildo the Cat disappeared, but he did say that the Huan vs. werewolf could be viewed as the continuation of the Huan vs. Tevildo theme, and that the Necromancer (Sauron) replaced Tevildo as the one who imprisoned Beren.

Though I would say that Tevildo and his companions fit well into the more 'playful' atmosphere and style of the rest of the tales, but not in the later versions as the language and the prose form of the Silmarillion developed through the years.

[Beor]

Yeah, thats right, I forgot about the sauron part, thanks. Any speculation on why he changed it? I thought it was really good, and I liked the legendarium (if that's even a word) of why dogs hate cats.

That said, I think that may be why he did, because when he wrote the LOTR, he had to slip away from his whole "Tol Eressa is England" mythology, and maybe he decided not to have as much myth, also, he now had Sauron. Most likely, it was just one of those changes that all stories go through that added some perspective to it that he thought was missing in Tevildo.

by the way, sorry I havent gotton back to you. I'm on it, I promise.

[Artanis]

please see my last post, I edited it. :)
And don't stress yourself, there's no hurry. :)

Edit: And no, I believe Tevildo disappeared long before LotR was begun. The Lay of Leithian was written in the late twenties, and there were no cats there.

[Beor]

gotcha, that's what I was trying to get at with a lot of words (one of which, I may have made up (legendarium), never heard that one before...something similar maybe...):)

[Artanis]

Editing and cross-posting with you again. :D
And I also use the word legendarium. :)

[Beor]

Well, at least we're consistent. :p

Do you know where it says when Tevildo disappeared? (probably right there in the BoLT2, right under my nose....)

[Artanis]

I'll see if I can look something up. But I know that Tevildo and his gang appear in the Tale only.

And I'll edit this post when I'm finished!

Edit: This is from BoLT 1, the Foreword:The Book of Lost Tales was begun by my father in 1916-17 during the First War, when he was 25 years old, and left
incomplete several years later. It is the starting-point, at least in fuHy-formed narrative, of the history of Valinor and Middle-earth; but before the Tales were complete he turned to the composition of long poems, the Lay of Leithian in rhyming couplets (the story of Beren and Luthien), and The Children of Hurin in alliterative verse. The prose form of the 'mythology' began again from a new starting-point* in a quite brief synopsis, or 'Sketch' as he called it, written in
1926 and expressly intended to provide the necessary back-ground of knowledge for the understanding of the alliterative poem.

[Beor]

Yeah, I am going to have to find time to refresh my memory on this anyway. I'm pretty sure its in the BoLT 2, I just cant remember. Thanks, Artanis.:)

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Maedhros
It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien. It is a good thing that the maiar had no parents. Jeje.
I hadn't thought of that parallel. Thingol is indeed using two different measures for himself and Beren. Although one could argue that Maiar and Elves are in a way closer connected to one another and more similar than Elves and Men. And as (I think) SGH pointed out, Thingol didn't deem himself inferior to Melian.

Originally posted by Maedhros
And so went Beren with Felagund and 10 of his knights to fulfill a hopeless errand. If you think about it, was it not for Celegorm and Curufin, would the entire host of Nargothrond march to Angband to face certain death?
I don't think the whole host would have marched, Finrod may have considered the advantages of sneaking in unnoticed against those of marching with an army in full view against a mighty opponent. But Finrod would have had more support and more counsel so that maybe their endavour had been more succesful.

Originally posted by Maedhros
The power of Lúthien is great. Now imagine if Thingol had used her daughter to make sleep all of her enemies in a battle? That would have been a great advantage.
Thingol doesn't strike me as the type of even considering bringing his daughter to a battlefield (just as little as considering to go to a battlefield himself ). But would Lúthien's power have been that great that she could have affected a whole army? I doubt it.

Maedhros, I noticed you used 'her' instead of Thingol's once of twice. Any unconcious opinions shining through here? :D

Originally posted by Maedhros
Beren felt asleep too. And our friend became greedy too. Because of the use of the power of Lúthien, she was weary and their disguises were removed. I wonder if Beren had not been so greedy, could they have fled from Angand freely.
I don't think anyone would have considered leaving the two other silmarils there without even trying to get them out the crown as well. Just think of it, here you are, in the throne room where none has been able to penetrate before, with the feared Dark lord snoring at your feet like a baby and the most wonderful jewels within hand's reach and you'll just let them lie? Not a chance IMO.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I have never understood this. I could see the sons of Feanor wanting to perhaps usurp the throne of Hithlum, being the place of the High Kingship, but why would they think they were entitled to the throne of Nargothrond just because they were of the eldest line of the princes of the Noldor? Any that would be entitled to the throne of Nargothrond would be those in Finrod's line, not Feanor's
Well, Orodreth at that time could not have withstood them and they held great influence over the people of Nargothrond. Their kinship in the eldest line of Noldorin princes would just have furthered their claim. IMO the people would have supported them if they would have tried to take the throne. A fickle people, those Elves of Nargothrond....

Originally posted by Artanis
It's diffucult to see how Lúthien could have known about the Oath and still revealed herself and her purpose to C&C. She was not stupid. But how this essential information may have escaped her I don't know. She had lived all her life within well-protected borders, but she still knew about the evils that befell outside her father's realm. Maybe it was her father's careless attitude towards the Fëanorean Oath that had influenced her, and perhaps she didn't realise how far Fëanor's sons would go to fulfil it. Though the latter seems unlikely too. An oath is an oath.
I think she may have known about the Oath but perhaps she misinterpreted its consequences. She wanted to rescue Beren first, the silmarils were only secondary in her thoughts. Besides, she herself was under no vow to deliver the silmaril to Thingol, the brothers had no legimate reason for stopping and locking her up on behalf of their Oath.

[Falagar]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I don't think anyone would have considered leaving the two other silmarils there without even trying to get them out the crown as well. Just think of it, here you are, in the throne room where none has been able to penetrate before, with the feared Dark lord snoring at your feet like a baby and the most wonderful jewels within hand's reach and you'll just let them lie? Not a chance IMO.
Agreed, though I still get a bad feeling whenever I read that passage (you know, the feeling that makes you scream "Don't do it!" to the heroes at the cinema ;))

I think she may have known about the Oath but perhaps she misinterpreted its consequences. She wanted to rescue Beren first, the silmarils were only secondary in her thoughts. Besides, she herself was under no vow to deliver the silmaril to Thingol, the brothers had no legimate reason for stopping and locking her up on behalf of their Oath.
I think she had too little experience with them to know how far they would go.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Falagar
I think she had too little experience with them to know how far they would go.
When I read about the Celegorm and [EDIT: Curufin] I always get the feeling that in some ways they acted ...'unelfish'. Their dishonouring conduct of cheating and attacking defenseless opponents doesn't entirely fit the 'noble' image of the Noldorin royalty. Granted, the first kinslaying and such can't be considered noble in any way but it seems to me the C-brothers took it somehow even a step further. I think a lot of people would be surprised by how far these two were willing to go.

[Falagar]

Then again Curunir wasn't an elf so that may not be very surprising. ;)

Their behavior was indeed very uncommon for elven lords. One may wonder what Fëanor had thought if he had heard of it.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Falagar
Then again Curunir wasn't an elf so that may not be very surprising. ;) :rolleyes:

Fne.

[Finrod Felagund]

Well, this chapter has many interesting "What ifs?" to it. What if Luthien and Huan had arrived slightly earlier at the Fortress, would Finrod have survived, would he have been able to make a difference taking the silmaril, would he have led a force into the Nirnaeth (in the next chapter) thus turning battle's tide? What if the knife had not broken and Beren had gotten all three silmarils?

[Paladin]

Another interesting note is that Finrod mentiones that so far Celegorm and Curufin have done all that he has asked and shown him friendship at every opportunity. Then he says the problems that bringing this up in front of them are going to cause.

It is almost scary to see the effect of the oath on all of the sons. People like to play it down and just pretend that they were evil in the beginning, but it is obvious they were as noble as any other elf, but this oath mastered them as it would ANY elf.

[Earniel]

I wondered at the absence of Melian from most of the tale. You'd think with her forsight and skill in song (i.o.w. magic) she'd at least play a more prominent role, at least as giver of advice.

She knew one would come, driven by a stronger force than hers (fate in this case) and break through her Girdle. But did she know how it would decide the fate of her daughter?

She knew it could endanger Thingol and she warned him of that but she doesn't counsel him on which action to take, and Thingol doesn't seek her counsel either. Because what does the dolt do? he gets himself entangled with the silmarils and the Oath. Tssk.

She also doesn't tell Thingol off when he goes one further and locks up their daughter! At least, as far as we know of. I wonder whether there is some lesser-known version of the Lay of Leithan, perhaps more in style of the Lokisenna, that was maybe sung very far away from Doriath and only late at night when too many drinks had been consumed, which in lurid detail tells of the dressing-down proud Thingol receives of his Maia-wife. :p One can only hope.

In any case Thingol seems to have started his fall from grace here. Here he makes light of Melian's warning of involving himself with the silmarils and then in the later chapter, he outright ignores her counsel to return the silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor. Was it just the influence of the silmaril or did Thingol in some part blame Melian for what happened to Lúthien and no longer heeds her counsel as he did before?

But also to Lúthien, Melian does not offer advice at any point. She does tell her of Beren's predicament in Sauron's dungeon, which spurs her daughter to attempt a rescue of her own. But perhaps Lúthien simply didn't need such advise. Nor does Melian seem inclined to hinder her daughter in her quest and movements either. In fact, she seems a lot more at ease with the idea of having a mortal son-in-law than Thingol. Which is maybe something Thingol resented.

But then... when Lúthien and Beren return from the dead, Melian is sorrowful when she looks at Lúthien and sees the full scope of her doom. So apparently Melian didn't forsee this fate for her daughter. I wonder then what fate she had forseen for Lúthien at Beren's side if Thingol hadn't meddled.

[Alcuin]

It is very interesting, it there is one being in the world who could understand the position of Beren is Thingol. He like Beren, fell in love with a being greater then him, but instead of understanding, he almost killed him at once. It was ok for Thingol to marry Melian but not for Beren to marry Lúthien.In marriage,Melian:Thingol :: Lúthien:Beren :: Arwen:AragornMelian is far above Thingol; Lúthien is far above Beren, as Thingol observed and objected; Arwen is far above Aragorn, as Elrond observed, and though Elrond was wise enough not to object, he set very lofty goals for Aragorn, which his foster-son met in full.

In wisdom and advice,Melian:Thingol :: Galadriel:CelebornCeleborn indeed filled the role of Thingol in many ways, and Galadriel filled that of Melian, even emulated her in setting some bound or “girdle” upon Lórien. But it was in her gentle rebuke of Celeborn when he decried Gimli’s entry into Lórien that Galadriel most resembled Melian, her mentor in Middle-earth; and unlike Thingol, Celeborn heeded Galadriel: perhaps he really was Celeborn “the Wise”.

Tolkien is sometimes accused of being a misogynist. Not so: it’s the men who always marry up, wedding women stronger, wiser, older, and richer than they.

In retrospect, Melian might have been searching or waiting for Thingol when they met. She bore him a daughter, Lúthien, and so the race of the Maiar was mingled with that of the Eldar. But it did not remain with the Eldar: Lúthien married Beren, and the lineage of the Maiar was among Mortals only: for there is no doubt Dior EluchÃ*l Lúthien’s son was mortal, or that his two sons lost in the Second Kinslaying were mortal: Mandos says as much in the Valar’s debate of what was to become of Eärendil and Elwing. Only if one of Elrond’s sons followed his father into the Uttermost West would any of that lineage remain among Elves except for Elrond and his parents.

I wondered at the absence of Melian from most of the tale. You'd think with her forsight and skill in song (i.o.w. magic) she'd at least play a more prominent role, at least as giver of advice.

She knew one would come, driven by a stronger force than hers (fate in this case) and break through her Girdle. But did she know how it would decide the fate of her daughter? I think it was in her mind to meet and mate with one of the Eldar. That must have come from the Music. No other Maia does this. (To make that point is why I reached back to the beginning of this thread.) She did not know the outcome of her actions, giving birth to Lúthien: The outcome of Lúthien’s actions was a matter of her Free Will, not her mother’s, and Melian was not privy to it beforehand.

She knew it could endanger Thingol and she warned him of that but she doesn't counsel him on which action to take, and Thingol doesn't seek her counsel either. Because what does the dolt do? he gets himself entangled with the silmarils and the Oath. Tssk.Thingol is having Elvish outrage. He wants to kill Beren, and thinks he has. As Maedhros pointed out, though, Beren’s relationship to Lúthien parallels Thingol’s relationship to Melian. (And when Thingol dies, Melian departs. When Aragorn dies, Arwen departs and dies. When Beren dies, Lúthien chooses to die, too.)

Thingol’s pride is driving his ill-advised course of action. I say “ill-advised,” because Melian objects to it, but not in front of Beren. It seems to have been an aside overheard in the court, and Lúthien seems to have witnessed it: O King, you have devised cunning counsel. But if my eyes have not lost their sight, it is ill for you, whether Beren fail in his errand, or achieve it. For you have doomed either your daughter, or yourself. And now is Doriath drawn within the fate of a mightier realm.That mightier realm is that of the Noldor, whose fate is entwined with that of the Silmarils.

I take that as Melian’s rebuking Thingol, and none too gently: Galadriel was kinder to Celeborn in Lórien. Thingol’s response was haughty, even towards his wife, and their daughter heard it and understood it.

No one asks, “How old is Lúthien?” Pretty old! Older probably than Arwen when she married Aragorn, and she was nearly 3000 years old. Lúthien understood in all their layers of meaning her mother’s rebuke of her father, and her father’s dismissive reply. She ain’t some flighty young teenage chick running on overstocked hormones and adrenaline. Her decision to follow Beren is indeed based upon deep love and affection, but she arrived at it in cold deliberation and logic as much as in warmest emotion.

She also doesn't tell Thingol off when he goes one further and locks up their daughter! At least, as far as we know of. … maybe sung very far away from Doriath and only late at night when too many drinks had been consumed, which in lurid detail tells of the dressing-down proud Thingol receives of his Maia-wife. :p One can only hope.The rebuke Melian has already delivered can be much stronger if you consider it sarcasm. It certainly has those overtones: the voice of the speaker and her inflections would control whether it was gentle or sarcastic, and even if delivered gently, the underlying sarcasm would eventually leave Thingol with bitter taste when pondered it.

In any case Thingol seems to have started his fall from grace here. Here he makes light of Melian's warning of involving himself with the silmarils and then in the later chapter, he outright ignores her counsel to return the silmaril to the Sons of Fëanor. Was it just the influence of the silmaril or did Thingol in some part blame Melian for what happened to Lúthien and no longer heeds her counsel as he did before?He is definitely ignoring his wife, who is much wiser (and far older!) than he.

I think Thingol is suffering from pride and an inflated opinion of himself. It eventually gets him killed by the Dwarves of Nogrod in his own fortress, which they helped him build; and ignoring Melian’s counsel to return the Silmaril leads to the ruin of both Doriath and the mixed company of Eldar and Edain at the Mouths of Sirion; but it also permits Eärendil’s embassy to Valinor.

But also to Lúthien, Melian does not offer advice at any point. … Nor does Melian seem inclined to hinder her daughter in her quest and movements either.I think she’s not supposed to advise Lúthien. This seems to me some plan of Eru’s, and Melian is the agent through whom it is achieved.

when Lúthien and Beren return from the dead, Melian is sorrowful when she looks at Lúthien and sees the full scope of her doom.Even if Melian meets Lúthien again at the end of Arda, that’s going to be a very long time. And you might remember that the Elves knew nothing of what happened to them after Arda.

By the way, Melian doesn’t wait in Doriath to meet her grandson, Dior. She leaves before he arrives. Of all the descendants of Melian and Lúthien on Elrond’s side, the only ones to know their grandparents are Elrond’s children, who knew Galadriel and Celeborn well. Dior never meets Melian. Elwing never meets Lúthien. Elrond never meets Dior. Elrond’s children never meet Elwing. Arwen’s children never meet Elrond.

[Earniel]

Tolkien is sometimes accused of being a misogynist. Not so: it’s the men who always marry up, wedding women stronger, wiser, older, and richer than they.
I don't think the men marrying up is necessarily a good argument against misogyny. One could argue that it makes Elven women into prices to be won, not actual beings with an agency of their own. And in turning this around one could say that in all Tolkien's work there is not one mortal woman ever good enough for a Elvish husband.

Not that I think Tolkien was a misogynist. I'd say that the Tale of Lúthien and Beren is about the strongest argument one can make against it. Lúthien is capable, brave, wise and she knows what she wants. She is no passive princess pining in a tower, either way you turn it. Beren needs Lúthien perhaps more than she needs him in their adventures and they alternatingly help one another out from a tough spot. Beren doesn't simply love her because she's beautiful, he also clearly respects her wishes and her capabilities.

I think it was in her mind to meet and mate with one of the Eldar. That must have come from the Music. No other Maia does this. (To make that point is why I reached back to the beginning of this thread.) She did not know the outcome of her actions, giving birth to Lúthien: The outcome of Lúthien’s actions was a matter of her Free Will, not her mother’s, and Melian was not privy to it beforehand.
But free will obviously doesn't hide potential outcomes from those with foresight. While I agree that Melian would not be able to know the outcome of Lúthien's actions, it would surprise me that Melian had no idea that her daughter would get involved in this particular forsight.

But there is so little actual texts to go on on whether Melian had any specific plans with Thingol or to what extent she had orchestrated their meeting (if any) in the first place. We can only speculate in what way Melian foresaw the events of the Lay of Leithan. If she had had a specific purpose to mate with an Elf, there must have been a purpose for Lúthien too.


He is definitely ignoring his wife, who is much wiser (and far older!) than he.

I think Thingol is suffering from pride and an inflated opinion of himself. It eventually gets him killed by the Dwarves of Nogrod in his own fortress, which they helped him build; and ignoring Melian’s counsel to return the Silmaril leads to the ruin of both Doriath and the mixed company of Eldar and Edain at the Mouths of Sirion; but it also permits Eärendil’s embassy to Valinor.
Much of his really bad decisions happen when Thingol has the Silmaril, as if it prevents him from thinking clearly. I'd agree it is pride that has him set it as a goal for Beren beforehand.

But afterwards... Tolkien often hints at it being the lust for the Silmaril that eventually gets him killed. Which makes me wonder somewhat because the things are supposed to be hallowed by Manwë, and yet they seem to cause a lot of evil all on their own. Even Lúthien's death is supposedly hastened by wearing it. Not so holy and innocent then.

As for Eärendil's embassy, I'm hesitant to say that Melian knew of this also. It would require a lot of foresight and planning. And Eärendil fate is much more guided by Ulmo's actions, unless one argues that Ulmo and Melian had the same distant goal in mind and Ulmo had greater plans for Tuor from the start apart from trying to save Gondolin.

I think she’s not supposed to advise Lúthien. This seems to me some plan of Eru’s, and Melian is the agent through whom it is achieved.
Leaving potential duty out of it for a moment, Melian clearly loved Thingol and Lúthien. If my mom had foresight, you bet I'd consult her on this sort of thing.

[Varnafindë]

And in turning this around one could say that in all Tolkien's work there is not one mortal woman ever good enough for a Elvish husband.

The closest to a mortal woman being good enough for an Elf, is seen in the relationship between Aegnor/Aikanaro and Andreth. I wonder why he didn't marry Andreth. It could be in order to protect her, in view of the wartime they lived in and the wars he saw coming. It could also be because his brothers didn't think it was a good idea.

I don't think it was that he didn't see her as good enough - after he had been killed in the wars, he chose to stay with Mandos till the end of time, rather than go back to Valinor as his brother Finrod did. He didn't want anyone else for his wife.

I need to read the Athrabeth again to see what reason Finrod chooses to give Andreth for Aegnor's choice ...

[Earniel]

I had not forgotten the Athrabeth. It is to my knowledge pretty much the only case known of that sort of love between a mortal woman and an Elf. There are far more instances the other way around. Which is perhaps why it still rubs me wrong a little bit because everybody seemed to be so darned convinced it could never work! Whyyyy?

I don't remember it much, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember not being particularly impressed by the reasons eveybody gave for being opposed.

So it partly spurred me on to make the general observation that mortal woman just don't seem to be 'high' enough for elven husbands. And as a mortal woman (alas!) myself, it obviously annoys me.

[Varnafindë]

I don't remember it much, it's been a while since I read it, but I remember not being particularly impressed by the reasons eveybody gave for being opposed.

I fear there isn't much to be impressed about in that respect ...

And all we hear in that story is one elf's point of view. It's a conversation only between Andreth and the brother of her loved one. Perhaps he (Finrod) is biased? He speaks for all the others there, does he give a true account of the other's reasons?

And perhaps he thinks Andreth isn't good enough for his brother and doesn't allow him to go on with the relationship?

This is perhaps fanfiction rather than interpreting the text (I have even participated in some RPing about it), but interesting all the same ...

[Earniel]

There's something to be said for that line of thought. But... why did it have to be Finrod?

Now if this was someone of the Fëanoreans, or even Thingol, one could understand the obvious bias and dismiss it accordingly.

But Finrod...Finrod was by all accounts a reasonable, intelligent and straight-laced guy. And he probably knew more about humans than the majority of the Noldorin Princes due to his higher interaction with the House of Bëor.

By all accounts Finrod of all people had to know what he was talking about. And then he does something like this.

One of the reasons I am not quite a Finrod-fangirl, despite all the other good stuff he had going for him.