Fate of dwarfs, ents, orcs?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I tried a search on this topic, specifically on dwarves, but didn't turn up anything so, hopefully, it isn't repetitive.

Is anything known, either definitively or via JRRT drafts or speculation, about the fates of such as dwarfs, ents, and orcs. In a 1978 edition of the complete guide to Middle-earth Robert Foster saysThe final fate of the Dwarves is uncertain. The Elves said that they had no life beyond Arda and the death of their bodies, but the Dwarves themselves claimed that Aule would bring them to the halls of Mandos, whence they will join the Children of Iluvatar at the End.
while in Letters #212 JRRT says: "...of the fate that
Iluvatar has set upon the Children of Aule beyond the Circles of the world Elves and men know nothing, and if Dwarves know they do not speak of it."

And he seems to also at least hint at the possibility of an orc "redemption", Letters #153:
They (Morgoth's using Valar subcreative powers to either make or corrupt beings in Middle-earth) would be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad. I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad' but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making- necessary to their actual existence- even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's and ultimately good.....and since in my myth at any rate I do not conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling and corrupting them, not making them.

If, then, orcs were men or elves unwillingly corrupted wouldn't an eventual "redemption" of them be fitting?

Oh yeah, and what about the fate of the ents beyond Middle-earth? Were there rooms for them in the Halls of Mandos?

[Twista]

Im sure Aragorn and his possie went and destroyed all the remaining orcs that went into hiding in the mountains and not what.. dont quote me on that tho...

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Twista
Im sure Aragorn and his possie went and destroyed all the remaining orcs that went into hiding in the mountains and not what.. dont quote me on that tho...

At least those in
mordor swore a non-aggression pact and settled around a lake whose name i've forgotten in the south east of mordor

forkbveard

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Forkbeard
At least those in
mordor swore a non-aggression pact and settled around a lake whose name i've forgotten in the south east of mordor

forkbveard

No those were the Men who were slaves of Sauron not Orcs. It was Lake Nurnen...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The above posts seem to be about the fate of orcs in
Middle-earth. That's fine, if discussion goes that way. But the original intent was to discuss, speculate, whatever, the fates of of some of the peoples of Middle-earth beyond the "circles of the world" although, parenthetically, what happened to those in south and east Mordor would be interesting. I believe JRRT said there were large farms there to support the Mordor military infrastructure.

As to the fate of Middle-earth peoples, the fate (doom) of men is clear, and elves probably(?) have some sort of after-earth fate, but the fate of the dwarves seems uncertain, and even more so may be that of ents and orcs. And what of stone trolls, who seem to have the ability of intelligent speech and independent action?

[Arien the Maia]

I always thought that Ents were basically spirits from outside of Arda that went and dwelled in the trees but I'm not sure if they are bound to the world the way Elves and the Ainur are...I suppose they would be considered Ainur though since they were from outside of Arda. Since Men go beyopnd the Circles of the World, I also believed that they went to be with Iluvatar and that their stay in Mandos before they left was a sort of Purgatory for their sins beofre they went and rejoined Iluvatar. Of course I'm getting all this from Morgoth's Ring. As far as Dwarves are concerned, well Aule made their bodies but Iluvatar gave them life with the Flame Imperishable the same way he gave life to the Elves and Men, so I don't think that they perish utterly from the world when they die. Perhaps they do go to Mandos until the end when they will help Aule rebuild Arda. as far as orcs go, well if they were corrupted Elves (or Men as Tolkien changed them to later) then wouldn't they share the same fate as the race they came from i.e. Elves or Men?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Originally posted by Arien
As far as Dwarves are concerned, well Aule made their bodies but Iluvatar gave them life with the Flame Imperishable the same way he gave life to the Elves and Men, so I don't think that they perish utterly from the world when they die. Perhaps they do go to Mandos until the end when they will help Aule rebuild Arda. as far as orcs go, well if they were corrupted Elves (or Men as Tolkien changed them to later) then wouldn't they share the same fate as the race they came from i.e. Elves or Men?
_______________________________________

Yes. I'd forgotten about Iluvatar using the Flame Imperishable. Perhaps the elf hissing fit about the dwarf future was effected by the traditional dwarf/elf enmity, except for the Noldor. As an aside, the fact that Legolas was a Sindarin elf (as such a relative of Elwe) makes all the more remarkable his friendship with Gimli.

Interesting orc speculation, too.
Oh yes, I seem to recall reading somwhere on the Entmoot speculation that some orcs were of elvish ancestry and others of mannish origin.
Uh-oh. That means movie Elephant Man Orc was a distant relative of either Aragorn or Legolas.:eek:

[Forkbeard]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
No those were the Men who were slaves of Sauron not Orcs. It was Lake Nurnen...

I suppose it depends on how you read "slaves"--in context it obviously does not refer to the Haradrim and Easterlings and others under Sauron's sway. If it refers to "slaves" in the traditional sense of those captured and enslaved, surely those would have been set free and wanted to return to their own peoples and homes rather than stay in Mordor. Elsewhere orcs are included among others as "servants" of Sauron, and if slaves is synonymous with "servants", it would seem that then that the orcs would be among those who are "slaves" of Sauron, and so among those who were given the lands around Lake Nurnen.

[The Gaffer]

This brings to mind the line in the Appendices about Gimli getting on a ship for Valinor:
..that a dwarf should leave Middle-Earth for any love...
or something, which makes me think they don't go to Aman. Perhaps they are reincarnated (Durin the Deathless) in Middle Earth so they can carry on fingering gold.

Ents are more interesting. I agree with Arien's comment: they were called into Arda by Yavanna, so they're probably some sort of Ainu. Another interesting quote from Galadriel to Treebeard in ROTK:
..in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet again in the Spring, implying (to me) that they're stuck in Middle-Earth until it is remade at the End.

[Artanis]

This is what the published Sil says about how the Dwarves think of their own fate:Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.Just like Arien and Gaffer have said.

As for the Ents, I agree that they were spirits called for by Yavanna, and as Ainur their fate is bound to the fate of the world.
Originally posted by Arien the Maia
as far as orcs go, well if they were corrupted Elves (or Men as Tolkien changed them to later) then wouldn't they share the same fate as the race they came from i.e. Elves or Men? I think they would share the same fate yes. But the spirits of Elves and Men were not forced to go to Mandos, they were only summoned. Would the spirit of an Orc follow the summons, and go to Mandos for redemption? Or were they too corrupted? And if they did follow the summons, would they ever be released?

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis

But the spirits of Elves and Men were not forced to go to Mandos, they were only summoned. Would the spirit of an Orc follow the summons, and go to Mandos for redemption? Or were they too corrupted? And if they did follow the summons, would they ever be released?

aren't Elves summoned, but Men have no choice in the matter? they go to Mandos regardless because that is the only way out of the Circles of the World right?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
aren't Elves summoned, but Men have no choice in the matter? they go to Mandos regardless because that is the only way out of the Circles of the World right? I don't think there was any difference between Men and Elves on that point, there will always be a choice, though the fëar of Men would most likely choose to follow the summons, for the very reason that you gave.

I know I've read something about this in HoME, but right now I'm unable to find it. :(

[Earniel]

I usually like to think (though without any text of Tolkien as a basis) that Ents and Entwifes, when they died, went to the Halls of Mandos and went (re-embodied) from the Halls to the gardens of Yavanna. It seemed fitting with the last lines of Treebeard's poem of Ent and Entwife. (How did it go again? From memory: ) "Together we'll take the road that leads into the West, and far away we'll find a land where both our hearts may rest." :)

[Heather Wooltoes]

Easy! They all moved to Xanth which you know still exists today.

(I decided that when I was 12)

[Findegil]

But that song was made by the Elves and Baumbart said that much would have been diffrent when Ents would have made it. Especialy the last line is very elvish, I think.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Findegil
But that song was made by the Elves and Baumbart said that much would have been diffrent when Ents would have made it. Especialy the last line is very elvish, I think.
Good point. :) I didn't think of that. Or perhaps the main difference would have been the length? ;)

[Artanis]

Findegil! I meant to ask you who Baumbart is, but I realised it's just German for Treebeard. :p